Here i am....

by makersmark 81 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  flipper

  MARKERSMARK- Welcome to the board my friend. Nice having you here. I was born & raised in the Witnesses ( stopped attending at age 44 , 7 years ago. ) You are not alone in your doubts about the " overlapping generation " theory. I have talked on the phone to some current elders and some who have stopped being elders about this bizarre " overlapping generation " thingie. All of them I've talked with post on this board. And they for the most part mention the same thing you do, that Jesus didn't say it was an " overlapping generation " that would see the time of the end, it was " THIS GENERATION " that would see it. Seems strange to me as well.

  Do you think the WT society is just trying to buy themselves time with this teaching or what ? I'm interested in your take. Also- One thing I've been curious about - What has caused the number of partaking anointed to jump from about 8,000 to 11,997 or so in 3 years time ? What is your take on that ? I have my opinions, but will wait to express mine until I've heard yours . Look forward to your takes.

  Anyway- Glad to have you here ! Pull up a chair, relax and let's engage in some discussions
• 

  MrFreeze

  Makersmark, really, do some research about 587 vs. 607. You don't need to see the arguments here. Just do your own secular research on it. I implore you to do this. This is a VERY big issue. Do secular research and see what experts really say about 587 vs. 607. You will be VERY surprised.

  By the way, welcome to the board.
• 

  chase

  your story sounds very familiar to my own, welcome. my best advice is to do your own research, stay open to ideas, take others opinions with a grain of whatever and make your own conclusion. i have decided that anyone who claims ownership of salvation, is questionable. good luck
• 

  inbetween

  welcome markersmark,

  being here can be the begin of an incredible adventure, opening your mind in a way, unthinkable in witness-org.

  and stay open minded in both ways. When I joined here, it was mostly the blood issue, that bothered me. Sites like www.ajwrb.org have very profound arguments. When I read them the first time, I was very fast convinced, that our blood doctrine has serious flaws. And I always was interested in it, in my hall, it was always me who had to handle the complicated parts on blood, too technical for most. Maybe you can elaborate on what issues apostates are inaccurate regarding the counterarguments on blood-issue ?

  The problem with JW in general, they base many things on the bible, but then go overboard, just like the Pharisees did with the moasic law.

  example: preaching, still I think is a basic requirement for a Christian religion, however, what about giving reports, pioneering, etc

  another example: disfellowshipping, as some posters mentioned, certainly of value in the biblical sense, but JW construct so many rules with it, some even secret, and way too rigid. Some reasons for it even not mentioned in the bible...

  What also shocked me in the beginning was the use of language of some posters here. While I still do not approve of it, I understand, that they suffered a lot from the rigid rules of JW, so for them its like therapy. Now it does not bother me too much anymore.

  Anyway, what I found here, is a forum, where you openly can discuss things, without repurcussions. Something impossible in the congregation without raising red flags.

  and what i like too, sometimes stupid rumours or accusations come up, but this forum helps to quickly dismiss or expose them. Socalled "apostate lies" will not prevail here.

  O f course, some issues are for some important, for others not. When it comes to citing old literatur, I always thought too, ok why bring up old stuff, we revised and know it better now, Gods org is not perfect. And it would not be a problem at all, its actually a sign of humility to change your teaching after finding out its wrong. The problem is, when you start saying, you are the only channel of God, the sheep are not allowed to challenge you, they have to take everything you say as coming from God, and when you finally have to change things, then say it is new light from Jehovah. This is suppressive and deceptive the same time.

  So welcome again, maybe, if you like, you might want to tell a bit about your story ?
• 

  Razziel

  UN membership - Didn't both me either until I learned about Malawi and Mexico. Then my hypocrisy bells went off. I'm just old enough to remember prayers at every meeting for the poor brothers being tortured and killed in Malawi.

  Blood Issue - The WTS stand never made logical sense to me. Now with the changes in the last couple of decades it's just a bunch of convoluted legalese.

  587 vs. 607 - I also had to prepare a TMS part on the prophecy leading to 1914, and dug out my parents copy of Babylon the Great has Fallen (I think it was) where the line of kings is listed. Their reigns didn't add up. I figured there was something I was missing and didn't revisit this question for another 6 years. Wish I had. Never found a satisfactory explanation. Now I know there isn't one.

  Derogatory words - To each his own I guess. Until the day we can divide this forum into different levels of recovery, we're stuck with it. We could also use a forum for trolls.

  Disfellowshipping - When I was in, I really thought disfellowshipping was one of the things that set us apart from false religion. Not withstanding the people I've seen disfellowshipped because of local hall politics, I now ask myself, is an insincere repentance still repentance? That's really what we were doing. It wasn't about love for Jehovah. It was about holding family and friends for ransom to see what the disfellowshipped person wanted more: their family, or a life outside of the organization. A person quitting drugs or promiscuity was a byproduct, not the true goal.

  Changing teachings - I also thought the light was getting brighter. Then I found out it was bright, then got dim, then got bright again. Now I see that most changes are reactive and have nothing to do with a "better understanding". The fiery chariot changes to react to the present needs of the organization which has absolutely nothing to do with "truth", even if that means moving backwards.

  Attacks on the GB - Give credit where credit is due. Everything comes down from them. The buck has to stop somewhere, and it's not with the rank and file.

  Generation changes - I'll never forget going out to eat after the convention in '95. I went with a long time elder and his wife. He sat in stunned silence. I asked him what was wrong. His reply was "They just told me I am going to die in this system."

  You realize there doesn't have to be one defining doctrine or event that causes you to leave. Remember the old adage "where there's smoke, there's fire." For every point you listed in your post, there is probably two or three more you didn't. Just the fact you noticed them says you've started up your critical thinking skills.

  Oh, and if you only read one book outside of JW literature, as others have suggested, read Crisis of Conscience. For me, that book was Fat Man falling on Nagasaki. It brought everything together. All of my experiences in the organization, all of my questions, and how the organization came to be the way that it is.
• 

  diamondiiz

  Hello makersmark:

  There are a lot of points you bring up. I would suggest you read Crisis of Conscience which deals with a lot of general information and how Governing Body worked throughout 1970s. May be different today, but that's the closest and most honest look you'll get at the wts leadership. Besides that I would strongly recommend Gentile Times Reconsidered. What you need to do is research and examine honestly whether you believe that the wts leaders were and are directed by holy spirit or not. This you have to examine with an open mind. History does matter despite what you said. If you belonged to Mormons or Moonies you could also claim that their beliefs today are not what they were a while back thus making them a true faith so that logic just isn't sound. History is very important to see how a group acted and what they said while claiming to be directed by God. After all, isn't wts pointing finger at other religions' history? One difference between religions and high conrol groups and cults is that in religions you still have some degree of freedom while in cults you don't. I could be a catholic (modern times) and disagree with pope and my family won't shun me. I could reason on matters of faith and have freedom of opinion that I don't have to hide from other Catholics while in wts you cannot do that without fear of being kicked out and shunned by even family members.

  While you may not like how some here refer to witnesses or wts I'm sure you can think of some things witnesses call apostates or outsiders? Aren't we all dead in Jehovah's eyes and will have our flesh eaten by birds and animals of the field? Some people may not enjoy wts doctrine that our kids will be killed because we aren't witnesses. So, you must understand that most of us post here not for the benefit of witnesses reading here but because some are still getting over the fact that we were in a cult and lost many of our years to it and some may have lost close family members due to shunning. While you may not agree that wts is a cult at the present time, many of us do view wts as a cult. This is ex-jw site who have come to the conclusion that wts is a fraud so you must remember that. You obviously know that there are many df witnesses who belief wts doctrine and aren't labeled apostates but are still treated like shit by witnesses, well this is not this type of a forum. :)

  Both books mentioned above are not anti-witness but are fairly written and they use references unlike much of wts publications. Personally I suggest you examine the 607BC doctrine and go from there. You should read what Russell taught so you don't minimize the facts since what WTS tells you in the proclaimers book makes it sound as no big deal. Teaching the public that Jesus returned in 1874 for 50 years is not a small mistake that you can minimize and claim that they only thought that and make it sound as it was just a initial short period of time when Russell was starting up - at least that's what I thought when I read proclaimers book years ago. Just as you have a problem with generation teaching that wts just revised you could also be ignorant and claim that's no big deal because the last understanding is in the past so it doesn't matter.

  I wish you all the best in your research and hope you have patience. Ask a lot of questions and ask for references. You will find some falsehoods that some claim about wts which obviously is counter productive so always ask for references as we do the same of any witnesses or apolagist who try to push their ideas on us.

  Here are some links you may find useful:

  www.jwfacts.com

  Old scanned publications can be found here and here.

  All the best.
• 

  cyberjesus

  try askinf the same questions from the platform snd see what kind of response you get... and u know you dobt believe in saints but sbc is like almost beatified here.
• 

  baltar447

  For me it's been alot of things.

  At first I thought that the UN thing was overblown, but then after reflecting on the fact that you can be DF'd for joining the YMCA, I realized it was a big double standard.

  The 586/7 thing made sense to me finally when I realized that the mounting evidence indicated that 607 was the wrong date and they were counting backwards from the wrong date as well, they should have counted back from 516 when the temple was completed.

  Jesus said his load was kindly and light. I don't see that in the org. Have you noticed the disturbing tone of the study articles lately? I'm deeply disturbed by the exalting of the GB. I thought they were the "slave" not the "Master".

  The new song book is AWFUL. I personally think that God may have "orchestrated" that pile of poo to wake us up and prompt us to leave.

  Is anything REALLY accomplished by the endless tract campaigns? Surely you are tired of these as are we all. The only apparent purpose seems to be to keep the flock busy, that's it. Busywork. For instance, would it not be cheaper to do just a little advertising on radio and TV for conventions instead of these dumb tracts? You'd get alot more response. I'm beginning to question if they WANT a big response.

  I have experienced a lack of love personally in the congregations. I also know that there are many that are loving but they are hog tied to the rules of the organization.

  Why is there no charitable works in the congregations? It's recorded here:

  (James 1:27) The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

  Why are we not looking after the less fortunate? At the very least our own less fortunate. I witnessed first hand a brother that was homeless living in the shed at the KH. The brothers, instead of finding him a place to stay, called the cops. I thought to myself is that what Chrisitian love is about?

  Theocratic Warfare. A prettied up word for lying to people. Lying to the media for instance. Talking out of two sides of your mouth. Case in point: *** g 7/09 p. 29 Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion? *** No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family. Now, here is where they don't give the WHOLE truth: *** g 7/09 p. 29 Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion? *** Does study of the Bible lead to family breakup? No. In fact, the Bible encourages a husband and wife who practice different religions to remain together as a family.—1 Corinthians 7:12, 13. So instead of telling the public that if one decided to leave the org, he/she will not be allowed to talk to family members anymore, they purposely print material that brings the reader to conclude that the Witnesses are tolerant of other's beliefs. Sure, until you leave(DOESN'T MATTER WHY), then you are spawn of satan, etc. I've got to get some sleep, but there's allot to think about if you take an honest look at things.
• 

  satinka

  Fear is the opposite of love, yet the JW religion is full of fear-based teachings. Fear God, fear the devil, fear demons, fear "apostates," fear disfellowshipped ones, fear Armageddon, fear of not doing enough, fear of having doubts, fear of having a contrary opinion, fear of having a "wrong" feeling, fear of the "world," fear of therapy, fear of acknowledging to the media that JWs shun their close family members...

  Yet the Bible says, "Perfect love throws fear outside."

  True spirituality would not be filled with fear-based teachings.

  satinka
• 

  ThomasCovenant

  Hello Makersmark

  Thanks for joining and contributing.

  Do you believe that the 'faithful and discreet slave' aka the Governing Body are God's sole appointed channel of truth on earth today?

  If YES, then you have to accept everything they tell you to accept. End of. Do not pass go.

  If NO, then they are no different to the plumber who lives opposite me. Or my dentist. Or my taxi driver.

  If YES, then all the people who have died because of the blood and organ issue will be resurrected

  If NO, then they, and indirectly you, are part of the reason they died.

  The fact that you are here tells me you believe NO.

  To say it out loud, NO, is difficult to do.