I need a show of hands: who believes the Bible and to what extent?

by Terry 206 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • bohm
    bohm

    psac - "Of course we would ba arguing what defines as more probable, especially if BOTH options are outside the naturla realm, which means BOTH could be JUST as probable and just as possible. Then the only thing that would make you prefer a to be is your issues with what you deem supernatural."

    no thats wrong for very good reasons which i have stated many times on this thread and other: For intrinsic reasons, there are good reasons to prefer a wave-function like model over a holy-ghost like model, even before evidence is introduced.

    said in another way: The two models have different qualities. the qualities of the holy-ghost like model make it less attractive. Furthermore, when we actually begin to explain experiments, even though both models conform to the experiment, the experiments will still support the wave-function over the holy-ghost for (again) purely objective reasons.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    said in another way: The two models have different qualities. the qualities of the holy-ghost like model make it less attractive. Furthermore, when we actually begin to explain experiments, even though both models conform to the experiment, the experiments will still support the wave-function over the holy-ghost for (again) purely objective reasons.

    Less attractive to whom and based on what?

    What reasons are those?

    no thats wrong for very good reasons which i have stated many times on this thread and other: For intrinsic reasons, there are good reasons to prefer a wave-function like model over a holy-ghost like model, even before evidence is introduced.
  • bohm
    bohm

    Psac: its not that i cant give you criteria in detail, but just to get us on the same page: In all seriousness, you think the holy spirit is a-priori a better explanation for the behavior of electrons than classical QM?

    i mean, REALLY?!

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Psac: its not that i cant give you criteria in detail, but just to get us on the same page: In all seriousness, you think the holy spirit is a-priori a better explanation for the behavior of electrons than classical QM?
    i mean, REALLY?!

    I thought we stating IF the HS can manipulate the electron, if it so chooses to do so - exerting its infulence on nature as it were.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Psac: Im just stating it as a general explanation for the behavior of electrons, so sure, modify the explanations if you want, for example:

    "the reason we measured X in the experiment was because the HS wanted it that way, and the HS can manipulate electrons"

    Im just trying to check where you intuition bring you in this area. you stated before that the HS and the wave function were equally good explanations, so i want to see if you really mean that...

    notice the HS-hypothesis will agree with the outcome of any experiment..

  • Ding
    Ding

    Bohm,

    I'm switching my further comments to your "Thor" thread because I think they are more appropriate there.

  • Violia
    Violia

    I would feel like Prodigalson , way back on page 1 or 2, but for not what Robdar said. I too have had help and guidance from something beyond myself. I asked for and received a direct answer one night. It involved another person who was just as stunned as I was. I will never be an atheist after I saw this. I have never received help when I could handle a situation myself. When I was unable and out of ideas, something has been there to help me. I ahve heard others describe this connection to the divine as like a cord.

    I think there is some good advice in the Bible and some interesting stories. I don't base my entire life on it now.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Im just trying to check where you intuition bring you in this area. you stated before that the HS and the wave function were equally good explanations, so i want to see if you really mean that...

    Let me try to put it this way:

    When something happens that we preceive to be supernatural and I say preceive because whether or not something is truly supernaturla is based on our perception of what is and is not natural as applied to the timeframe we are in ( a woman giving birth to a child with no sexual intercourse would be considered supernatural 500 years ago, or even less), we can formulate many a view for it but the fact is, untill A view is proven to be correct, any number of views are possible and even probable in the case of an event that can be deemed "supernatural".

    My view is that, evidence can lead us to the conclusion of an outside force as being the cause of said supposed supernatural event.

    If you want to call it God or the HS thatis fine, IF the qualitites that we have attributed to those "entitites" can explain the supernatural phenomena.

  • bohm
    bohm

    psac: Imagine that you hear tomorrow that your neighbour died (and nothing else). Consider the following explanations:

    • cancer
    • mauled by a bear
    • killed by a hamster
    • steamroller related accident
    • drowned in a torrent of beer
    • aliens killed him
    • assasinated by foreign agents
    • car accident
    • a virus killed him
    • God killed him

    all of these explanations are possible, and for each and every one of them i could come up with a scenario that explained how it happened.

    But - and you got to give me this - they are not equally likely. Its not like you imediately think there is a 10% chance of each of these are the real cause of death, and in an investigation of his death we should treat each hypothesis differently: they would require different standards of evidence, if you know what i mean.

    So why is that?

    There are mainly two reasons: First off we know they are not equally likely (a-priori). the chances of getting killed by cancer is a lot higher than getting killed by a hamster, or aliens, or foreign agents; to keep things simple, one very important thing is how many elements the explanation require; like the foreign agents require many more elements than a few of his cells going nuts.

    The second reason is more subtle but even more important.

    Lets say i focus on only cancer and aliens as explanation. For cancer, there is only a few symptoms which are compatible: I basically expect to be able to cut him open and find cancer.

    But with aliens its more fuzzy: How would an alien kill a man? its very hard to tell; it might be very subtle and give him a virus or something, or it might use a nuclear warhead. aliens can explain a wide range of phenomena, while cancer can only explain relatively few. Therefore new information, even though its equally compatible with the explanations, should not be treated the same.

    I hope you can see there is more to this than asking of something can be explained. the hypothesis are simply of different quality and must be treated accordingly.

    if this is not done, one end up with eg. conspiracy theories (which are compatible with all observations because they are infinite flexible) and it become impossible to have a rational conversation. Its also how fundies argue: "god might have used his magic to make the water cover the earth"

    I left a few things open, like which criteria should be used to evaluate each of the two above step. what i claim is that every rational criteria used will point to God being a horrible explanation by any measure, basically because its very "large" and explain many different "things".

    it does not mean God does no exist. But it mean we cant treat the God-hypothesis like any other hypothesis. if you disagree with me on these points, try to indicate if you agree or disagree with the points i made under "reason 1", or those under "reason 2".

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Bohm, I don't think your example is inline with mine...

    Notice that I said:

    When something happens that we preceive to be supernatural...

    And that is the key, now using your example, if my neighbour died AND his body was nowhere to be found and all evidence point that he was NOT abducted or tht his body was removed by his family or that it was destroyed in any possible way, then what options would we have if this was an isolated incident the never happened before?

    ( yes we are going out on a huge limb, but its all good, LOL)

    His body disappeared ( became immaterial)

    His never died and just got up and left not telling anyone( though the evidence points to no one coming or going)

    He was abducted by aliens that transported him, ala star trek.

    *anything you want to add*

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