by tec 101 Replies latest jw experiences
Although I prefer to keep my thoughts mostly to myself, I just wanted to say Thank You to tec for this thread. And to everyone who posted their thoughts.
I am really enjoying it and have many points to ponder because of it.
Nicely done, all!
This thread is why I am here.
Hugs to Tammy,
Tec thanks for sharing your example and it's so nice that by your own kindness that you were rewarded with a deeper understanding of what Jesus did. This is how our love for him grows. It's like our friendship with other people, we may think a lot of them, respect them and care about them but as time goes by and as we grow in a deeper appreciation of them personally, they become dearer to us.
Hugs back to Palmtree, , and thank you to Listener. I am just so happy to have been able to 'get a sense' of what Christ did, and how and why He did it. I am thankful that I could share it.
Tammy
Tammy-
Your 'We are responsible' addresses the other side of this discussion about whether a God exists or a Jesus exists in heaven or elsewhere and the trajedies that they let occur. There is always an excuse among Believers of any religious system. Jesus or whomever we are told is all powerful but 20,000 infants die of hunger each day or name your other favorite trajedy, let's see He or It doesn't do anything because of Excuse#37. The carrot dangled by Religion is that there is some paradise or nirvana coming and 'then' the trajedies will finally stop by 'God's' power. Fortunately we are seeing a great interest and great srides made by we humans in humanitarian and environmental issues, people taking up the 'We are responsible' mantle. People working hard everyday to make things better now and for future generations, that's real boots on the ground activism I can believe in and enjoy working with everyday.
AG- Wow a believer in an actual Devil you're fun
Since many here believe in very different versions of 'Jesus' there is some comfort in realizing that has always been the case. 6 months ago I asked the question 'Which Jesus' because if you ask 10 people here or of any group you will get 10 different answers.
The sectarian Gnostics of the second century actively agitated for a complete divorcement of Jesus from any Jewish attachments. Marcion wanted to eliminate the Jewish God from the Trinity and the OT from Christian literature and all practices should not have a Jewish origin.
Pope Victor I, 190CE, forbade the celebration of Easter on Passover under pain of severe penalty Emperor Justinian, 6th century, had the Corpus Juris Civilis forbide Easter on Passover. The Council of Nicea, 784CE, required converts to Christianity to vow 'We will not celebrate the passover, the Sabbath, or the other feasts connected with the Jewish religion'. Still Jewish thing s persisted such as Chanting Prayers, Antiphonal singing, saying 'Amen'. The Eucharist to a Lutheran and Catholic is the literal partaking of the body of Christ and so the Passover metamorphized in the Gentile Church. Justin Martyr tried to expalin the resemblance to the Persian Sun-God Mithras as evil spirits knowing the Jesus was coming tried to screw things up for the Church. Scholar James Fraser saw a similarity in stories about Phrygia.. The Book of the Dead tells the Redemption story with Osiris.
Some here don't like the Trinity. The early Christian movement was split between the Jewish-Christians who followed Peter and James ideas and the Gentile-Christians who followed Pauline theology. The Jewish-Christians disavowed the 'Son of God' moniker but beleived he was the true Messiah and was resurrected and would come again. Another Jewish-Christians group, 98CE, believed Jesus was the reincarnation of the Prophets. Eusebius persecuted these Ebionites. The Nail In The Coffin came at Nicea when the groups would split, Judean Christians would go so far as to reject the NT entirely except for Peter's writings. They vowed 'Only the God of the Scriptures can be called God...and no other'.
Mohammed picks up on this rift in the Koran having some not so kind words about Mary and the Trinity. Unclogging Christian practice from its Jewish origins still seems to be the dedicated effort of modern theologians, Dean Inge, late head of Westminster, preached "Do you agree with me that our services are terribly clogged with Judaism".
So 'Which Jesus'.
I personally don't care 'which Jesus', as long as the people know and show the love of Christ.
Tammy
dear Tammy...
good morning!...nice weather out there hey?...:)
you said:
"I understand that the Israelites would have understood a blood sacrifice/legal requirement. But I understand the desire to carry the wrongdoing of another person, out of love for them, knowing that they are unable, but wanting them to be free because of that love... and I understand making amends by doing what the other person should have done/should be doing." I understand this too... this shows love of neighbour. "what we should be doing is loving and showing mercy. Also if the whole law hangs on the commandments of love, for that is the most important law, then it stands to reason - at least to me - that all sin stems from the lack of love and/or mercy." in my reading of the genesis account it seems to indicate to me that all sin stemed from not listening to God because of deception...so one can sin, not out of a lack of love or mercy but out of complete ignorance...we all make mistakes because we are imperfect...He didn't make us perfect the account says that He made us "good". I'll talk to you later about this some more because I think there is more to discuss about the legal requirement that the israelites "understood" but I have to go now. love michelle
Let's talk culpability.
Are the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses culpable for the gross misconduct of Jehovah's Witnesses: Yes________ No _______
So why do Believers in the 10 different versions of Jesus being presented here try to get their guy off the hook and not be culpable for his Followers. He let's stand monstrous Lies in his Biography which inflame his Gentile followers to murder Jews but he won't stand up and do something about it, never apologizes. So how is he different than the Governing Body we use to follow who show the same cowardice but preach 'Love'..
Religion and Faith are funny birds that produce blind spots in people's perceptions.
good morning!...nice weather out there hey?...:)
Spent an hour and a half with my boys, shoveling our driveway (which I never realized before that it is way TOOOOOOO long of a driveway), and it already looks like I did nothing! On the plus, I got the boys outside and working/having fun in the snow.
so one can sin, not out of a lack of love or mercy but out of complete ignorance
Of course, but that's kind of like a child who doesn't know any better, isn't it? Once you know better, then you are more fully culpable for your actions.
"If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." John 9:41
I'm not sure if that means you don't sin - because you do. But perhaps that you're not 'guilty'; not culpable, because you didn't know it was wrong. (Also the thing about few blows (for not knowing and not doing) and many blows (for knowing and not doing) )
He didn't make us perfect the account says that He made us "good".
I don't remember an account saying that He made us "good". He didn't even describe himself as good. I only remember that he carried our sins for us - out of love - but not that this made us "good".
Designs:
It depends on whether that gross misconduct comes as a direct result of following their teachings/example. Because if they are not following the WTS, then they are not their 'followers'. Lets take a look at the Dalai Lama (sp?) - or insert any other man of peace. He preaches peace, non-violence, forgiveness and acceptance. (I don't know if he teaches self-defense or not, so not a pacifist per say) If two of his 'followers' go out and do the exact opposite of what he teaches, are they his followers, or are they acting on their own - or perhaps just pretending to be his followers for what they can gain, and thereby maligning his name?
Wolves among the sheep, remember - twisting, warping the word - out of ignorance for some, greed and hatred for others, etc. If the rest of the sheep listen to the wolves instead of listening to the Shepherd, then who are they actually following?
Tammy
Tammy-
I appreciate how the followers conduct can't always be directly connected to a group leader, but when the group leader says and does things to set in motion dangerous consequences he or she has to step up and take responsibility. Take the blantant Lie- 'His blood be upon us' here you have a direct correlation to the violence against Jewish people as a result. Christian Church Leaders directly used this express phrase to justify burning Jewish people from their homes. From Eusubius to Chysostom on up through the Middle Ages and even into the 20th century that verse, which Jesus left uncorrected, caused millions of inncocent lives to be lost.
When the Watchtower Leaders put their Blood policy into place and had all of us Elders follow it or else there was community guilt for the lives lost and the GB members were directly culpable for the lives lost.
We all have to man up and admit our terrible mistakes, then try to live the rest of our lives better.
