Introduction

by dontplaceliterature 85 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  ziddina

  Hi and welcome to the board, Me Myself & I!!
• 

  bohm

  Wow. Two very interesting new posters, thanks for writing the introductions!

  DontPlaceLitterature -- especially to you. I think its quite brave of you to "enter the lions den", knowing you will be confronted by a lot of oppinions and attitudes that i can easily see is off-putting.

  I hope you will finish Crisis of Consciousness and start some topics about it. Unfortunately Ray Franz is dead, but when he was alive he would happily answer emails - to my knowledge all emails confirm he was in person like he come across in the book.

  Where i in your shoes i would be worried that many of the points Ray make in the book are very hard to check; please feel free to challenge the points here, no doubt it will be an interesting discussion. I dont know what evidence you are interested in in terms of examining the watchtower, but i would recommend Pentons "Apocalypse Delayed". Penton is a historian who, after he had written on the many important leagal victories the Watchtower has won in the 20th century on religious freedom, was asked by his peers if he would consider writing on the history of the jehovahs witness.

  At any rate, i would recommend it because what Penton write is more easy to check, and it made a great impression on me.

  Alternatively, if you are not comfortable by to much apostate litterature, i would recommend "The Finished Mystery".

  Personally, my main objections to the watchtower has been the way my girlfriend has been treated when she quit going to the meetings (disfelloshipping in general), and the blood issue which i think is entirely spurious.

  If you feel like it, just send me a PM.
• 

  undercover

  Welcome to the forum. I enjoyed your first post...

  I'll comment on a few things you said - having not read the rest of the thread so bear with me if my point has already been made...

  I hate hate hate the term “rank and file” in reference to the general population of the congregation. I understand that most of you no longer view these people as “brothers” or “sisters” but it paints the individuals in the congregations as idiots for being there. I found it offensive and I’m sure any other lurker who is an active member would too. Some of you have even gone so far as to come right out and insult the intelligence of these people. That view is elitist and unfair. I would never be turned away from Jehovah’s Witnesses by that kind of attitude. If you wish to educate people who are so indoctrinated, show a little compassion.

  "Rank and file" is not an apostate creation. Leadership of the religion has used this term themselves. I don't have the reference handy but it's in print somewhere even. Make sure you share your feelings with them when you get the chance...

  You are right, some do insult the intelligience of the general population of JWs and unjustly so. What we all need to remember is that we're all at different levels of leaving/escaping/whatever the JW cult. Those who have been around awhile have worked through the bitterness and anger. Others are fairly new to their newfound freedom and haven't worked through all the emotions yet and it shows at times in their posts. When I first joined I had to filter through some of the bitterness and "hatred" to find the factual and reasonable posts.

  Fortunately, I have not been mistreated by this organization, in my opinion and have generally had a good life as a Witness. My father and my mother came from broken homes. Most of my relatives are on drugs, in jail, have multiple bastard children, and are generally miserable. I do not regret that I was protected from that, and somehow doubt that my parents would have responded to any other spiritual calling than the one that the Witnesses led them to. Looking back, though very materially poor, we always had what we needed, and I was always happy. I don’t feel like I was denied anything, because my parents weren’t radical slave drivers. Sure I missed the holidays as a kid, but I’m sure I wouldn’t celebrate them if I left anyway. I’m pretty much of the opinion that they are narrow and commercial and that kind of grosses me out. I’m not really much of a conformist (This coming from an active JW/MS!! har har har har)

  I'm like you...for the most part, I was not harmed by being a JW...other than being the weirdo kid in class and not being allowed to join in any "worldly" fun. It may have been a protection in some things...a detriment in others. Whose to say? It is what it is. I thought I was raised in a normal family because we didn't have drug use, drunkeness, jailbirds in our family like some of my non-JW family. It wasn't until I was older that I realized that our family was pretty fucked up, due to DFing and shunning along with other paranoid tendancies brought on by the never-ending nagging of Armageddon happening any minute.

  But despite our fairly benign experiences many have been mistreated and hurt by this organization. Ask around about the child abuse scandals. What is your thought on the blood doctrine? People have died trying to prove faithful to the WT decree. While it may be a noble thing to die for what you truly and really believe, it's not noble to die for a lie that was perpetrated on you. Can you justify denying a life-saving procedure based on what the WTS says? Should the WTS be so dogmatic about something that could cost you your life? There are some here who denied their child this life saving procedure...and later learned the WTS, and thus themselves by association, were wrong. That's something that you and I never want to have to face.

  So, as you can imagine, the thought of leaving behind “The Truth” for whatever else is out there scares me to death. I don’t really feel a moral obligation to leave, despite my doctrinal differences, because I don’t think there is a perfect way to worship God. I don’t really think I would find a more fulfilling life somewhere else.
  
  Yet, I hate the idea of being fooled/coerced into doing something I don’t have to do, or shouldn’t do. So, I’m going to continue exploring and getting to know some of you here in this forum to find out if there is a strong enough motivator for me to move on with my life to something different/better or start focusing on reasons to stick it out for life as a Witness.

  There's the rub... leaving scares you yet you don't want to be coerced to do or believe something that you know is not correct. Why does leaving scare you? Why should it scare you? If your research produces evidence that the WTS is not God's Earthly Channel and have erred and lied, why would you still want to be associated with them? Fear of losing family? Fear of the unknown in the real "world"? You're an intellectual, don't let emotions overrule the facts.

  Again, welcome to the forum. And I look forward to more posts and experiences. I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. And while we may say some things that might rub you the wrong way initially, I hope you can see that we're trying to get you to think outside the JW box more than what you've been willing to do so far. I think you're on the right path.
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  mamalove

  Welcome! I like your writing style and attitude. Nothing wrong with being curious, having some good discussion, and seeing the world through the eyes of others. I bet you find this site to bring up lots of emotions. Right now, I am guessing your life might be pretty good, you seem to imply that you are able to help others (kudos), and have an education, so I am thinking you have a job?

  Many people find when they encounter really big dilemmas or problems they come to a crossroads. Perhaps in time you will be there. I look forward to seeing more of your posts!
• 

  stuckinamovement

  Welcome to both of you,

  It is nice to hear your experiences and see that you are balanced in terms of your beliefs. I agree that it can be disconcerting for someone who is born in like yourself and myself to see the level of emotion that some express about the organization. I have realized though that the passion and vitriol that some display/express is a louder statement to the lack of love and care they have received in the org than their words are.

  Many people have been hurt deeply by the organization. As a MS please try your best while you are still in the organization to care for those who need a balanced hearing ear. There are many walking wounded within the WTS.

  Take Care,

  SIAM
• 

  ziddina

  Undercover - regarding the expression "Rank & File"...

  Please see Pirata's post above on this page - page #3 - his #3 reference...
• 

  Farkel

  : It seems to me more like an atmosphere of hate (PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!).

  Um, didn't they teach you in College Beginning Logic that the one who makes the assertion ALWAYS has the burden of proof? One can not disprove a negative assertion. If I say there are millions of invisible bugs swirling around my head who who speak to me in Norwegian and challenge you to prove me wrong, could you?

  That being said, if you think genuine love permeates your average group of Jehovah's Witnesses, you are truly doomed. Say one thing wrong, or do one thing "wrong" and you'll see how much "love" you really get. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only group I know who thinks the best way to treat their own wounded is to shoot them dead.

  As for ex-JWs exhibiting hate, yes that is often true. We hate the deeds, not the doers so much. We hate those in power who know they are teaching lies and making insane, anti-Biblical rules, rules which in fact, result in murder or at least, needless deaths of innocent people. Few of us hate the average JW who is the victim of these people in power.

  If JWs actually loved people so much, why do they have to constantly crow about how much they love people? The deed is in the walking. The deed is not in the talking.

  Farkel
• 

  undercover

  Undercover - regarding the expression "Rank & File"...

  Please see Pirata's post above on this page - page #3 - his #3 reference...

  Thanks, Zid... and Pirata...

  I shoulda known somobody would've had the references handy...
• 

  respectful_observer

  DPL,

  It appears as though you and I share similar educational backgrounds, as well as very similar circumstances at present.

  I appreciate you sharing your circumstances and thoughts so thoughtfully. It’s always refreshing to see that others are in a similar place, and it's always refreshing to see a similar approach to respectful, open dialogue.

  Thanks,

  R_O
• 

  sleepingbeauty

  Hi Dontplaceliterature...

  Welcome to the board... This is my longest post, so I hope its a good one :)

  I have read all of your posts & the rest of this thread, so I have a feel for what questions you have raised. Im probably going to get out of my depth here in trying to offer my 2 pence worth, but I will give it a go & will apologise if Im incoherant due to this late hour ! ... :) I quote you in saying:

  Are the doctrinal issues within the organization a result of a false pretense that the GB/Anointed Class is not actually under Jehoavh’s direction? I don’t really have my mind made up on that. I will say this, and maybe it’s a typical reply from someone like me, and hopefully doesn’t sound too naive.

  The very thing that brought me into the then said 'Truth' was the prophecies and its the VERY same thing that made me leave .... Now I say this because when I came into the so called Truth back in 1989, I was categorically told that 'This Generation Will By No Means Pass Away before the end Will Come'... This generation being those from 1914 becoming 70 - 80 years old....

  Well when it changed again recently in the : April 15th WT 2010... I found out that this Understanding of Generation teaching had been changed repeatedly over the last 100 years... (please see how by viewing this link into your web browser):

  http://freeminds.org/images/articles/generationjw.jpg

  I witnessed first hand many underhand practices within the congregation, way too many to document, but I will offer you one of my first experiences that stands out like a sore thumb ..

  A brother was adamant that he was of the anointed, but the Elders said that there was NO way that he could be because the numbers were sealed back in 1935. Since this brother refused to accept what they had to say & was adamant about taking the emblems, they disfellowshipped him. He lived directly across my road which meant his house faced mine (a distance of 20 yards) & we were no longer able to speak to him let alone look at him. Now that the WBTS has decided that 1935 is no longer accurate, where does it leave this brother (Victor Witlock)? Should he not be reinstated automatically? Why was he treated so badly? ....

  You may remember an article back in the mid 1990's, but if your a youngish brother then you may not.. The article was in the Awake, it had a picture of a man on it with one side of his face all beautifully groomed, whilst the other side of the face was very unkempt. The article discussed how this man had been imprisioned during his life for GBH, Armed Robbery etc.. He was portrayed as the most charasmatic loving brother who had now a fantastic wife & step-daughter... What upsets me to this day is that this article was a real brother from within my own congregation. To all intents and purposes he came across as a loving super spiritual family man (a Ministerial Servant), but EVERYONE in the congregation knew that he had a temper & was violent towards his step-daughter. When she didnt conform to his standards (and his standards were VERY HIGH) he would whip her with a bicycle chain. She suffered with years of mental abuse. If she answered up during the meeting honestly in such a way that he felt was inappropriate, she would cop out & everyone knew it. What really gets me about this is that the congregation knew this about the brother (Steve Haymar) and yet the elders happily submitted his lifes story to the Society to say how such a fantastic man he was. This wasnt right & if Jehovah was spirit directing things then this wouldnt / shouldnt have happened. (I will add that when the step-daughter was old enough to do so, she upped & left and a court case was ensued to bring his actions to justice)...

  Now getting back to your question... I feel that the organisation used unscriptual & distorted doctrinal teachings to suck me in, only to change these teachings under the pretense that they had recieved new light !!!... Now if the Faithful & Discreet Slave were providing Food At The Proper Time then my question to you would be :

  • Why if we are in the last days are the Faithful & Discreet Slave, not being Discreet & Serving up Such Inaccuracies? Surely through GODS ONLY CHANNEL of communication, any divine Inspiration should have ensured that they got the Fundamental Core Teachings Set in Stone (being Fully Accurate & Unchangeable)... ???

  I feel this answers one of your questions regarding whether you feel the Anointed Class are under Jehovahs Direction....

  Up until I allowed my eyes to be opened ,I couldnt have been more super spiritual during my JW years if I had tried... I emotionally woke up to the Lies about the Truth October 2009... and to this forum & exjw-reunited .co.uk I am truly grateful.

  My relatives are just waking up the fact that Im not going to meetings any more and accordingly they have called me a Reprobate. This shows to me how unloving JW's can be when you no longer subject yourself to their control..

  Reprobate translated means that I am apparently:

  • 1. A morally unprincipled, depraved, damned person.
  • 2. One who is destined to damnation.
  • 3. Shameless. ...

  This is the thing you see. Now that Im on the outside I can see just how judgemental and two faced that they are. I have been happily married for over 20 years. I have & continue to live a very clean life (by JW standards). I have raised 4 beautiful children & happily help anyone regardless of religion, culture or values.... This to me is a true Christian, just as Jesus would have wanted....

  I truly wish you well in your journey & hope that I have provided you food for thought .... :)

  Big Hugs all the way from ENGLAND coz Ya Gonna Need It :)