Are you romantically interested in the female friend?
Are you romantically interested in the female friend?
The situation is sad. There is no way to underestimate the need for male recruits. It is such a male worshipping religion. Few men are stupid enough to fall for it. When I was active, women were members to an unhealthy excess. In many ways, it could be a man's dream come true. I've discussed men with worldly friends and brothers with Witnesses. There is a desperation among the Witnesses. African-American women deal with a similar phenomena but my impression was that middle-class black men were plentiful compared to available brothers. Maybe it was just my experience. We lived next to a very poor area. I wonder what type of man signs up when the vast majority run.
I'm certain she is a lovely person, absent the Witness beliefs. It is termed the borg for a reason. You will be bound to the Society. Your manners and actions sound very commendable but they also place you at increased risk. Others wrote of what happens once you are officially a Witness. My family attended Kingdom Halls where no one would even glance in our direction. They did find my father, however, whenever they needed a loan for the Kingdom Hall or a sister did not pay her utility bill. I have little toleration for this charity work. My family suffered greatly financially. I went without so some foster mother could not have her utilities turned off. Utilities must be included in the foster care fee. Looking back, it was outrageous that she had custody of children. The love fades quickly.
My father was at Bethel as a bodyguard. Once he left, those affiliations ended. You don't know loneliness until you are a Witness. Every social contact you make can be crushed by an innocent misunderstanding with the elders. There should be JW lawyers like canonical lawyers. The rules are legalistic and often make no sense.
Of course, posting here is like preaching to the choir. We have been hurt by the Witnesses. Doctrinal differences are one thing. Rejection by those you view as God's exclusive agent hurts to the core. No matter what I did I was not good enough.
Do you think she has feelings for you? My guess is yes.
She is trying to be "good" and play by the rules. But remember, you are "worldly." A non JW. There are only JW's and everyone else. And if you do not become a JW, then you are as good as fish bait. So she probably does have the hots for you and would love to date you but you need to get baptized first, which could take a year, and then maybe another 6 months before you will be looked on good enough to date. You better be towing the mark at that point too.
I love a good love story, but this seems to not have a happy ending. I am sorry...
Do you think she has feelings for you?
I don't know. There's this extra layer that stifles what should be a normal healthy process. It should be so simple: you hang out, get to know each other as people and see if anything is there. If not, it's ok, and you're just friends. In this situation, it's hard to even be friends, let alone get to know each other on a deeper level. How can I possibly find out what her feelings are, if she can't have any meaningful contact with me? About a year ago I asked her on a date. She explained about Paul, marriage, the wicked system, paradise, and concluded with "so, no dates." She didn't say how she actually felt about me. We do interact in normal life and have common interests, but she has a wall up. I can't tell if it's because she's not interested or not allowed to be interested. Other people who know her think she's in this cult to hide from men. I don't know. I think she was hurt in the past, and within this cult she feels safe because of the "principles" and how she thinks the men are so "humble." I don't think they're humble. After a brief conversation with her PO, he struck me as a manipulative jerk. I didn't call him that to her, but I did say I was "spooked" by the environment. She says he's like her "daddy," and he's just being "theocratic like quality control." More rationalizing.
She must be very intriguing, and special for you to go this far to get her to yay or nay you....
Yes, you are right, either you have a connection to someone, go on some dates and see if you want to get into a relationship or not. I bet she likes the attention, and has hopes. I am positive of it. But her conscience won't let her go there.
I don't think you will get far with her. She seems too entrenched in it from how you describe her. How old is she if you don't mind me asking? She seems pretty young to be saying the PO is like her daddy...yuck. Most women in their 30's have more confidence and independence and can speak for themselves and be more logical.
I hope you meet someone nice soon, and can just have a friendship with this person. Good luck on your path!
Mad Sweeney , "You stole my comment!" :)
What he said bears repeating here:
"If you go too far and then don't go all the way (becoming a fully active JW) then you're worse (in her mind) than someone who never ever heard the invention "Jehovah.""
In my view, you have the following options
1. Stop now with a good reason like family pulls you in your original direction. Don't make the decision be yours but something you cannot change because of others. You should still be able to have contact with her in some fashion and it will be ok.
2. Continue and later stop before becoming baptised ... you will be seen as bad association because you were not fit even though you saw the truth.
3. Become an ordained baptised Witness of Jehovah
a. She may get involved with you right off for marriage .. at the very least, she will get advice to wait about a year to see if you will stick
b. She may wait for you to become an MS and possible Elder material... This will take you a few years to do. Other sisters will throw themselves at you before this, many wanting a quick baby so they can do less field work.
c. or You may find she brings in a lot of guys this way and is not interested in them
d. If you fade or dissaccociate after realizing the bait and switch, you will never talk to her again
I would ask if she is 'pioneering'. She may have long conversations with you and those hours count to her quota every month. Does she look at her watch when meeting with you and departing?
How old is she if you don't mind me asking?
She is 33, and I'm 37. Yes, she is very intriguing. It's the things she does intuitively that attract me to her. EXCEPT for this cult. My friends say, "how could someone with any intuition fall for this?" I'm not ready to judge her character that harshly because I know what it's like to fall into a kind of brainwashing/delusion scenario. I allowed myself to be persuaded by some born-againers when I was in college & found in myself some of the same thought patterns I see in her. However, I was still willing to seriously consider the views of those who disagreed with me and change my mind. It seems like something more controlling is going on with this cult which makes me less hopeful that she will "wake up." She may not, and I'm prepared to accept it, as much as it hurts. When I get to the end of the "study," if she asks why I don't accept it, I want to be able to explain why. I can't just say "itsacult" even though I know it is (btw I do love the itsacult posts b/c they are a good reminder). I'm hoping I can at least say something that she'll remember and maybe think about. These WT guys are pretty good though - they seem to have covered a lot of the usual problems people bring up, at least enough to retain the members who are already rooting for them - like my friend.
Awww, you def have a crush on this gal! Maybe you will make her wake up. However, you know that if she chooses you, her family will shun her if you don't become a Witness.
What about doubts, does she have any doubts? There are people on this forum who have successfully gotten loved ones out. However, sometimes people leave, and then go back just to be with family.
33 and never been married for a JW is pretty old. Most JW people get married when they are teenagers. Did she go to college? Maybe she is more forward thinking?
@mamalove - she is a convert since 2003. Her family is not JW. I asked her what her family thinks, and she said her mom covers her ears when she tries to bring the JW stuff up. I can totally understand. As for her doubts, I don't get to hear them. I wish I could - at least we would be communicating on a more meaningful level. Instead, she just repeats the JW rhetoric at me. She went to art school & is not familiar with things like logical fallacies. I have an engineering degree, so I can process that stuff more easily. That's not to say engineers can't be fooled by cults, but I think my background has served me well in developing critical thinking skills. When I present her with things in the WT that don't add up, she takes on the martyr complex they program and makes me out to be overly scrutinizing toward them.
@trillaz - OMG. Thank you. This is exactly the kind of info I need to know. Being unfamiliar with the way things are in this cult, I would have had no idea. Thank you so much. I'm going to seriously think about the implications of what you said. It's another example of things that smack me in the head the more I learn about their subculture and make me sit here and go "aaaaaaaaaah" inside.
IO, check your pms.