Like we'll ever settle this once and for all, but here goes; ARE YOU A TRUE CHRISTIAN? (page 8)

nicolaou

Me: Which statement comes closest to answering your question; "What else would you call acting without certainty?"

[1] Acting with doubt.

[2] Acting with faith.

DD: Acting with faith.

But the Bible equates faith with certainty. You are arguing that faith is acting 'without certainty'!

New International Version (©1984)
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Faith assures us of things we expect and convinces us of the existence of things we cannot see.

King James Bible
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

American King James Version
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

American Standard Version
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

Bible in Basic English
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.

Darby Bible Translation
Now faith is the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

English Revised Version
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the proving of things not seen.

Webster's Bible Translation
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Weymouth New Testament
Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.

World English Bible
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.

Young's Literal Translation
And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

cyberjesus

I am a true Agnostic Christian to some people to others I am a true A-Christian

Deputy Dog

bohm

DD: Which of the following constitute faith:

inductive reasoning

deductive reasoning

None of the above. From my seat that's backward. That looks like something the JWs would say.

Nic

I have to admit I chuckled when I saw that you of all people (an atheist) quoting the bible to me. Thanks!

But the Bible equates faith with certainty. You are arguing that faith is acting 'without certainty'!

Maybe you and the WT equates faith with certainty. However I do not, nor does the bible IMO. The NIV and ISV might give that impression, however, if you'll notice, most translate using words like "confidence", "assurance", and "conviction". I think those words do a much better job conveying the thought, throughout the whole context of chapter 11.

bohm

DD:

Your example off why i had faith was this:

Are you 100% sure the 4 fundamental forces of nature are going to be constant? They haven't always been. They could change. You assume, have faith, believe or expect that they will remain constant.

Three things spring to mind:

1) Is faith the same as assume, believe or expect using your definitions?

2) Again, your explanation is a question. If you dont know what i am thinking on the topic, why can you be so sure what method i use for thinking (faith)? Its a sloppy way of arguing to throw out an assertion, then have such difficulties defining what that assertion really is.

3) The obvious answer to the question is *no*. I am not. My past thread should indicate that perfectly. HOWEVER common-sence would have that since they to the best of my knowledge has been constant for the past couple of billions of years, and since i have no knowledge of a mechanism that could cause them to change, i deduce that there is little chance they will. Does such an argument constitute faith according to your definition?

Deputy Dog

bohm

Is faith the same as assume, believe or expect using your definitions?

For the most part, yes. At least in this context.

2) Again, your explanation is a question. If you dont know what i am thinking on the topic, why can you be so sure what method i use for thinking (faith)?

I don't think faith is a "method" used for thinking. I'm sorry if you got that impression. I do think faith (the things you "believe" but aren't SURE about) underpins thinking. Your faith is the foundation for your thoughts.

Wouldn't you agree that what you believe (or have faith in) effects how you think, at least to some degree?

donuthole

I saw something on Facebook the other day

Let's show the world how many true Christians there are! Update your profile with this status to show the world you are a true Christan.

I thought it was kind of funny. Simply update my Facebook status and I'm in? Man the bar is set pretty low these days ...

nicolaou

The bible does not equate faith with certainty? Are you actually making that claim?!

Deputy Dog you are graduating from a slippery poster to a self delusional one. I listed seventeen translations of Hebrews 11:1, only two used the word 'confidence'. 'Assurance' appeared eight times, 'conviction' was used six times - and yes, 'certain' appears twice.

And you really are claiming that the Bible doesn't equate faith with certainty?!!

Hope you're not being deliberately dishonest DD.

White Dove

The definition of faith, to me, sounds a little schizophrenic.

I believe in the tooth fairy because that quarter couldn't have gotten there any other way.

Also, who else would have taken my tooth from under my pillow? No one else had any use for it.

Therefore, it HAD to be the tooth fairy that did it.

Faulty logic leaves out any other possibilities.

Schizophrenia brings in all sorts of things to have faith in.

About four customers come in to my place of work at different times (they don't know each other) and bring in a few of their "friends" with them.

I don't see their "friends" nor do I hear them, but the schizophrenics who bring them in sure have faith that they exist.

Like we'll ever settle this once and for all, but here goes; ARE YOU A TRUE CHRISTIAN?

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