Like we'll ever settle this once and for all, but here goes; ARE YOU A TRUE CHRISTIAN? (page 4)

bohm

DD: You both use my world view (faith) to understand the universe.

Okay, im calling you out: Where do i use faith? WHERE!?!?!

Essan:

How can a meaningful label embrace two groups with totally different views"

1."I absolutely believe God does not exist" AND, 2 "Well I don't know for sure, but theism is stupid".

See my thread for my oppinion on group 1.

how about 3: subjecting god to the rigor applied to any scientific hypothesis reveal there is to little evidence to accept it.

Essan

"how about 3: subjecting god to the rigor applied to any scientific hypothesis reveal there is to little evidence to accept it."

This doesn't disprove God. If it could be accurately done - which it can't - and if it came out with the result you expect, it would only prove God was unlikely, not that God doesn't exist. Probability doesn't establish truth. We've been through this. So at the end one would still not "know", therefore one would still be agnostic. If one used supposed probability to decide that they believed that God did not exist, then they'd be a believer, who bridged a gap in full proof with faith based belief.

Anyway, I really don't want to get back into this debate. Where is my self control? LOL

bohm

Essan:

This doesn't disprove God. If it could be accurately done - which it can't - and if it came out with the result you expect, it would only prove God was unlikely, not that God doesn't exist

No, ofcourse. trivially true. I devoted an entire thread to that subject: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/198623/1/Why-complete-conviction-does-not-exist

"Probability doesn't establish truth"

What exactly do you mean? True - do you mean physical phenomona like: "the Andromeda galaxy is far away", "newtons laws are a good approximation", etc? Secondly, do you use probability in the sence of plausible reasoning like Cox or Polya?

Essan

Bohm, I'm sorry, but the phrase "Probability doesn't establish truth" is so spectacularly self-explanatory that I don't think I need say any more. If that phrase no longer carries an obvious and undeniable meaning for you then I am afraid that you are in danger of disappearing forever up your own orifice. LOL.

bohm

Essan: The question in my mind is this: What, then, establish truth?

My gut reaction is its a bit of a trap, and you use truth in the sence of certainty about natural phenomona. Then, per the other thread i made, it would be a trick question.

But you might also use "truth" in the usual sence, ie. as "validity" or "a likely fact or law", ie. in conjunction with statements like: "the Andromeda galaxy is far away", "newtons laws are a good approximation", etc; then it would be an entirely different answer, and the question i would like to ask you was then that in my first line.

so: Trick or treat? ;-).

Essan

You're asking an agnostic how to establish truth? LOL

No, truth is not a "likely fact". Obviously. To pass the latter off as if it were the former, is a "trick".

To pretend that we know something when we don't and can't know something for sure, is a "trick". Seeing as the likelihood of God's existence cannot be accurate and objectively established, then, to pass of a supposed "likelihood" as a categorical fact, would be a "trick", a deception. It doesn't matter which conclusion we lean towards, God exists, or God doesn't exist, such a conclusion is, in the end, just a belief.

bohm

Essan: I completely agree, in fact, i think that in the link i provide at the bottom i nail my colors to the flag on that issue. But then you dont have any issue for my statement (3) save i let it fall under the atheist label? (and lets not open that can of worms again!)

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/198623/1/Why-complete-conviction-does-not-exist

Essan

Right this isn't fair. Clearly I'm ill LOL. Stop drawing me back into this discussion Bohm.

If I were an alcoholic would you offer me a drink?

I'm a compulsive poster trying to control my habit. Help me out here, you madman. :)

Like we'll ever settle this once and for all, but here goes; ARE YOU A TRUE CHRISTIAN?

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