by Consfearacy 128 Replies latest watchtower bible
So the “true Christians” that all speak in agreement, and are not divided,
What does that even mean? JW's do not all speak in agreement. There are many conscience matters. Some will have blood fractions, some will not. Some ignore the rulings on oral sex, some do not. Some condemn nightclubs, yet many hang out there. They are only in agreement about a few core doctrine, and that is pretty much the case with most religions.
"They are only in agreement about a few core doctrine"
Exactly, and even that is because disagreement with the Society is not allowed and this is enforced with disfellowshipping.
When it comes to witnesses that frequent nightclubs, these are generally ones that were brought up in the Truth but are somewhat undecided. It also depends on the nightclub, whether it's a hedonistic designer-drug rave or a place where people sit down and watch live music. They are in agreement with everything when it comes to what the Bible teaches. If there are any disagreements with what they're being taught, they'll probably just leave. Christendom is good at maintaining church membership even though they disagree on major issues like homosexuality and abortion because of rich religious traditions and visual arts in worship.
http://www.calvin.edu/worship/stories/visual_worship.php
What defines you? Is it what you know and do...or what you see and love? Must you choose? Your answer likely affects how you see the role of visual arts in worship.
Light and dark. Apple, fig leaf, ark, rainbow. Star, cross, 153 fish.
Taste and see that God is good. Abram, Jacob, Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, and John—all vision struck. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory.
Linen garments, branched candlesticks, curtains embroidered with cherubim. Stone, cedar, cypress, gold.
Soaring arches, stained glass, mosaic floors. Icons, robes, vestments, candles. Stencils on rice paper, catechetical posters, Holy Week processionals, images flickering across big screens.
Christians around the world have different ways of using visual arts in worship. Yet we worship the same Potter, who through the indwelling Spirit shapes us to become more like Christ Incarnate.
And as lush or austere as your own visual tradition may be, you can worship more deeply by considering why and how other Christians receive God’s revelation through what they see.
They are in agreement with everything when it comes to what the Bible teaches. If there are any disagreements with what they're being taught, they'll probably just leave.
Rubbish.
When I was a JW I knew many who had disagreements with many aspects of JW doctrine, they expressed these to me privately - very nervously and tentatively - because they knew I did too and that I would never "report" them to the Elders. But they were not allowed to express this openly without being rebuked by the Elders. If they openly admitted they disagreed and wouldn't back away from that position, they would be disfellowshiped for 'Apostasy" and friends and in many cases family members were required to shun them. So please don't pretend that people who disagree just "leave". People who disagree are thrown out and shunned with massively destructive consequences to their lives. Others don't dare express these disagreements openly for fear of losing lifelong friends and family.
No wonder JW's appear to "speak in agreement" on many matters. They dare not do otherwise.
This is the very definition of "High control".
A person would be disfellowshipped for trying to proselytize inside the Kingdom Hall or using connections with witnesses that are not elders, relationships they formed after Baptism to proselytize or press counter doctrines for destructive purposes.
However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Peter 2:1
I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves. Acts 20:29-30
Alice; your opening post listed a selection of High Control groups including Mormons etc yet the biggest and most dangerous HTG of the lot The WTS didn't get as much as a whisper, The WTS have a Jones town Massacre and Waco tragedy a hundred times over due to the amount of members who have died refusing blood and organ transplants, parents have even murdered their own children in withholding these life saving procedures, yet your leaders of The WTS never received as much a one word of criticism from yourself, I find that odd.
Consfearacy said: "A person would be disfellowshipped for trying to proselytize inside the Kingdom Hall or using connections with witnesses that are not elders, relationships they formed after Baptism to proselytize or press counter doctrines for destructive purposes"
No, that's not true at all. I know this from personal experience.
You do not have to actively try to persuade anyone else of a differing view (proselytize), or even state that you hold another view for definite in order to be disfellowshipped. It just has to come to the Elders attention that you do not or may not fully agree with the Society and not be willing to recant this position.
If you merely say "I don't agree with that" openly, about any JW teaching and if the Elders get to hear of it, you will be rebuked by the them and if you continue to hold that position of disagreement under questioning, they will disfellowship you for Apostasy. You won't get away with claiming otherwise here Consfearcy because many have seen this firsthand themselves. Some more open-minded elders may be content with gagging you, letting you off with being warned or reproved as long as you promise never to voice your disagreement again and stay silent. But often JW's will not receive such magnanimous leniency.
But you certainly do not have to be "proselytizing" a different view in order to be disfellowshipped.
Even seeking answers too vigorously can lead to being 'reported' and rebuked. I had a friend who used to study very deeply. He was studying the Trinity brochure and could not understand a particular sentence in it. So he kept looking for answers. He was and is a sincere JW and totally believes in the Society. He kept asking others if they understood the sentence and could explain it to him. They could not, but whereas he wanted to understand, they were content to remain ignorant but trust that the sentence must make sense, even if they didn't know how, because the Society wrote it. Soon, the Elders called him into the "back room" and said "we hear you have been questioning the Society?". He was shocked because he had been doing nothing of the sort, but asking too many questions is a dangerous thing as a JW. They were angry and told him to keep his mouth shut and stop asking questions because, even if he was just a conscientious student, it "could be seen as if he was questioning the Society". They told him they would be keeping a close eye on him. As an obedient and now rather scared JW, he did exactly as he was told and kept quiet. He never did get an answer. He is still - silently - "waiting on Jehovah" for an answer, as instructed. He did not even express disagreement.
"[A] mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbour private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (Watchtower, August 1st, 2001, p. 14) .
Confearacy, do you have any shame? What about a conscience? It really makes me wonder when you tell lies like this:
"Using the Bible and secular resources the early Bible students pinpointed the end of the gentile times in 1914."
1) It was Chuck Russel, not the students. It was never the students, only Chuck.
2) How can you claim a "pinpoint" when Chuck was off by months. It happened in the summer, not the fall as Chuck predicted.
3) And to answer the question that you were too much of a coward to adress: Chuck used a pyramid to come up with 1914. Not the Bible. The Judge is the one that created the fiction of a double fulfillment of Daniel - and that was only to save face from Chuck's false prediction.
Essan wrote, "[A] mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbour private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (Watchtower, August 1st, 2001, p. 14).
Mature Christians do maintain unity and full harmony with fellow believers and are not necessarily dependent on the "the faithful and discreet slave" to maintain unity. The faithful discreet slave is an instrument to help others progress to Christian maturity. When it comes to what is stated above, it's an individual choice whether a person agrees.
If a person advocates or insists on personal opinions or harboring private ideas that are in disagreement with what the slave teaches, why is this person in association with Jehovah's Witnesses if no one can tell him/her anything? As for ex-communication, a person doesn't get disfellowshipped for having doubts, disagreeing or being disillusioned. They get disfellowshipped for taking an active stand against the organization.
it-2 p. 310 Man of Lawlessness
An expression used by the apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 2:2, 3 in warning of the great anti-Christian apostasy that would develop before “the day of Jehovah.” The Greek word for “apostasy” here used, a·po·sta·si′a, denotes more than a mere falling away, an indifferent sliding back. It means a defection, a revolt, a planned, deliberate rebellion. In ancient papyrus documents a·po·sta·si′a was used politically of rebels.
w92 7/1 p. 19 par. 18 Elders, Judge With Righteousness
On the other hand, when members of a judicial committee are confronted with a clear case of remorseless apostasy, willful rebellion against Jehovah’s laws, or sheer wickedness, their duty is to protect the other members of the congregation by disfellowshipping the unrepentant offender.
In all fairness, if I were to become a member of a Catholic or Baptist church, later revolt and take an active stand against their church, there might not be a formal discharge, but I'd be systematically pushed out the door.
Essan wrote, "But you certainly do not have to be "proselytizing" a different view in order to be disfellowshipped. Even seeking answers too vigorously can lead to being 'reported' and rebuked. I had a friend who used to study very deeply. He was studying the Trinity brochure and could not understand a particular sentence in it. So he kept looking for answers. He was and is a sincere JW and totally believes in the Society. He kept asking others if they understood the sentence and could explain it to him. They could not, but whereas he wanted to understand, they were content to remain ignorant but trust that the sentence must make sense, even if they didn't know how, because the Society wrote it."
Specifically, what sentence are you referring to?
Alice - I like your other avatar much better. Is this one Batman? I see the Bat signal above and the person looks like they're wearing a cape. Or it could be a mad wizard walking down the hall of his creepy mansion.
Bring back the hot witch!!
