by Dogpatch 270 Replies latest jw friends

  • jookbeard

    Hallo Reniaa

  • metatron

    How many pages does it take for this silly nonsense to be exposed? At some point, you Apologists are going to be confronted with the FACT that the Watchtower Society is a public, broadgage liar. Not only that, but this habit of lying stretches across 130 years.

    So then what? They didn't mean to lie? It wasn't malicious lying? It's all just 'white' lies? Or lying is just a byproduct of being faithful to a 'preaching commission'?? Really?

    130 years of lying is what it is! There shouldn't be any credibility left or remaining, no matter how extended these 'false prophet' discussions are.


  • designs


    It shows how strong an idea is, whether its vicarius christi or my country right or wrong, change it both difficult and scary. Something in the life of a Witness will trigger the Aha moment just like it did with us.

  • Essan

    Debator, you’re a liar.

    You know full well that every pitiful objection you and Consfearacy have raised as an excuse has been thoroughly rebutted with Scriptural evidence and direct quotes from the Society’s own literature many times in the pages of this thread. You even disagree with Consfearacy! You can’t even keep the story straight between the two of you! He insists the identifying mark of a ‘False Prophet is being a deliberate liar. You insist it is specifically claiming inspiration. Make your minds up!

    You said: “Deut 18 makes it clear the false prophet has to be claiming to say inspired Words directly from God”

    Actually the verse says nothing of the sort: "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him".

    I don't see any references there to a prophet's specific claims of "Inspired words directly from God"! It never mentions what specific claims the prophet made, only that he made a prediction and rendered it “In God’s name” which is very different and far more general than ”claiming to say inspired Words directly from God”. The Society can be directly proven to have claimed to speak in God’s name, as you know, and of making false predictions. Thus they’re completely condemned by Deut 18:20-22

    You have no case! And your only defense is to ignore the evidence and lie, hoping that some poor dupes won’t bother to read evidence on the previous pages and will simply believe your drivel. Yor truly are from your lying ‘father’ the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

    So, one more time, for those who haven’t read the previous pages....

    You wrongly claimed that a false prophet must directly and specifically claim ‘inspiration’ before they could be rightly condemned as a ‘false prophet’. That, as we showed, was entirely unscriptural, and even goes against the Society’s own teachings, but we played along. You were shown that nowehere in the Bible does any false prophet ever use the word ‘inspiration’, (never mind this supposedly being a consistent rule and unfailing ‘identifyer’ as you lyingly claimed), yet these ones in Scripture were identified as false prophets nevertheless . Therefore, the Society would likewise NOT have to use the word ‘inspired’ to be identified as a false prophet, they would just have to state or imply that their interpretations or teachings originated with God, and thus lay claim to the authority of ‘inspiration’ but without actually using that word, just as Biblical False Prophets did not use it.

    This is not actually what the Bible says - but we played along with your demands. The Bible shows a much wider definition of ‘False Prophet’ but you were hoping that by attempting to narrow it, you could get the Society off the hook. But no.

    So, by YOUR unscriptural definition:

    Obvious claim of ‘inspiration’, without the word ‘inspiration' being used’ - just as Biblical 'False Prophets" did not use it - and of speaking in God's name.

    "The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of any of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in the Watchtower ". (Watchtower, Nov. 1 1931 p. 327)

    "In all his (Russell's) warnings he claimed no originality . He said that he could never have written his books himself. It all came from God , through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 7, p. 387.)

    "The writer does not give his opinion. No human interpretation of scripture is advanced ." (Reconciliation, 1928, p. 6)

    " The Watchtower is the channel which Jehovah, our God, is using at this time." (Watchtower, August 1, 1930 p. 239)

    Cross-examination of Frederick W. Franz in the case of Olin Moyle v. WTB&TS, 1943, Sections #2596-2597, p. 866:

    Q. At any rate, Jehovah God is now the editor of the paper, is that right?
    A. He is today the editor of the paper .

    Q. How long has He been editor of the paper?
    A. Since its inception he has been guiding it .

    Cross-examination of Nathan Homer Knorr in the case of Olin Moyle v. WTB&TS, 1943, Section #4421, p. 1474.

    Q. In fact, it is set forth directly as God's Word, isn't it?
    A. Yes, as His word.

    Q. Without any qualification whatsoever?
    A. That is right.

    "This chronology is not of man, but of God . Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated , present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct...." (Watchtower, July 15, 1922)

    1931 "Today the children of Zion need no extraneous proof that the spiritual food and understanding of the prophecies they have comes from God . They know that no man or men could provide such food. No man or men on earth attempt to lay claim that lay of these truths proceed from man . (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1931, p. 328)

    Russell regarding his chronology predictions, now abandoned as false. said, “ It is beyond the breadth and depth of human thought and therefore cannot be of human origin .” (Studies In The Scriptures, 1889, vol. 2, p. 15)

    " If we were following a ma n undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness , neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from god must be like its author. a new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. new light never extinguishes older light , but adds to it." (Watchtower Feb. 1, 1881, Reprints p. 188)

    Elevating the Literature to the status of the inspired Scripture, which is “alive and exerts power”, but claiming even greater spiritual power: “"If the 6 volumes of 'Scripture Studies' are practically the Bible topically arranged, with Bible proof-texts given, we might not improperly name the volumes- 'The Bible' in an arranged form . That is to say, they are not merely comments on the Bible, but they are practically the Bibleitself...Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible itself , but we see also that if anyone lays the 'Scripture Studies' ... after he has read them for 10 years-if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone...out experience shows that within 2 years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he has merely read the 'S.S.' with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years. " (Watchtower, Sept 15, 1910)

    And there are many, many more such quotes. They repeatedly and explicitly claim ‘inspiration’ but without using the word inspiration, and spoke in God's name, just as false prophets condemned in the Bible didn’t use the word inspiration. Even when using your unscripturally narrow definition, the Society condemns themselves.

    You have no case.

  • Consfearacy

    Mary said, "No, the reason you have a problem labeling Charles Russell as a false prophet is because you start with the assumption that he was being used by Jehovah to 'resurrect true Christianity', even though there is absolutely nothing scripturally or historically that suggests this was the case. When you begin your supposition with a pre-conceived idea like you have, then you will try and argue every single false prediction he made because you can't stand the thought that he was in fact, a false prophet."

    I mentioned before that Jesus foretold his teachings would be subverted and there would be those at the conclusion of this system of things that stand out as different.

    All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding.” Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen. Matthew 13:24-43

    The corruption of those that claimed apostolic succession was systematic and became so bad that it resulted in Christendom dividing, the Protestant Reformation.

    You feel justified in quoting from Deuteronomy 18:20-22 to identify a false prophet. Do you think it's justified to put an occultist to death for their religious practices?

    “You must not preserve a sorceress alive. Exodus 22:18

    In 33 C.E. the law of Moses was canceled on the basis of Christ’s death (Colossians 2:14) a new covenant replacing it. Hebrews 7:12 Jesus never ordered anyone to be killed for resisting his message, nor for disagreeing with him on spiritual matters.

    There were quite a few transgressions in the Old Testament a person could be put to death for that are not applicable to secular law, except when Christendom allied themselves and became the superior authorities. A person could be subjected to capital punishment however Rome wanted it defined; it ranged from people who disagreed with official policy to hermetic philosophers, Jews, witches and Protestant reformers. That's what made these religious leaders false prophets. Compare Matthew 7:15-20. A false prophet was redefined in the New Testament. You can go through every scripture in the New Testament and it will not describe the early Bible students as false prophets. I personally don't care how Charles Russell is thought of by others as I never met the man. Whatever his mistakes were have nothing to do with me and do not carry to anyone else.

    “You're not allowed to question the Governing Body no matter how stupid or ridiculous some of their doctrines are, or you'll be disfellowshipped.”

    I've many times vigilantly asked pressing questions to the elders about what was stated in Bible based publications and was never disfellowshipped or even warned of such an outcome.

    You keep condemning the faithful and discreet slave for their viewpoints on Armageddon so what's really going on here? Can you use the Bible to invalidate the prophecy? At this point you're taking statements that imply a finite time frame about the conclusion of this system of things. There's nothing official about a date in the society's literature after 1925. Essan tried to cite the society's literature about an implication for the year 2000.

    g98 5/8 p. 21 How Significant Is the Year 2000?

    Surely, neither the year 2000, nor 2001, nor any other time threshold set by humans has anything to do with Jehovah’s timetable.

    Mary said, “Because the WTS is a false religion and their history is filled with false dates made by false prophets. If you're too blind that you don't see that, then that's your problem.”

    You can denounce Jehovah's Witnesses as a godless organization, a man-made institution. The Bible many times speaks of rebellion and spiritual blindness. If you come across as such a person to those that accept the Bible's message, they won't accept that denouncement.

    That is why, since we have this ministry according to the mercy that was shown us, we do not give up; but we have renounced the underhanded things of which to be ashamed, not walking with cunning, neither adulterating the word of God, but by making the truth manifest recommending ourselves to every human conscience in the sight of God. If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. For we are preaching, not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. For God is he who said: “Let the light shine out of darkness,” and he has shone on our hearts to illuminate [them] with the glorious knowledge of God by the face of Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:1-6

  • wasblind

    Hi mary, in that case i just found another flip flop

    What's important is that we put our complete trust in Jehovah, Jesus and the Faithful Slave.

    Creepy isn't it, how the "Faithful Slave" is now on equal footing with Jehovah and Jesus?

    The Watchtower, June 15th, 1996, Page 31:

    “ . . Yet the fact remains that the same truths and the same understanding are available to both classes, and it is just how the individuals apply themselves in study that determines the comprehension of heavenly and earthly things they acquire. The Lord’s spirit is available in equal portions to both classes, and knowledge and understanding are offered equally to both, with equal opportunities for absorbing it.”

  • wasblind

    So does that mean the rank and file won't be disfellowshiped, for not believing the new light???????

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Debator said:

    To others
    Aside from redefining what constitutes being a false prophet outside of the bible (which makes it clear that they must claim direct inspiration from God himself which witnesses never have) there was little content to the ex-Jw points. It was very instructive to see Consfearacy deconstruct all your negative bias on here.

    I guess this was an April fools Joke?

    From: 4/1/1972 WT

    ‘They ShallKnowthataProphetWasAmongThem’

    JEHOVAH GOD is interested in having people know him. Though he is invisible to human eyes, he provides various ways by which they can know his personality. They can know what to expect from him and what he expects of them.

    One can come to understand that Jehovah is a God of surpassing wisdom by observing creation. This also reveals the loving care with which he designed things for man’s welfare and enjoyment. A second way to know God is through his Word of truth, the Bible. Herein one finds the full expression of Jehovah’s purpose toward mankind—why man is on the earth and the blessings that God has in store.

    A third way of coming to know Jehovah God is through his representatives. In ancient times he sent prophets as his special messengers. While these men foretold things to come, they also served the people by telling them of God’s will for them at that time, often also warning them of dangers and calamities. People today can view the creative works. They have at hand the Bible, but it is little read or understood. So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?


    These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? The clergy of the so-called "Christian" nations hold themselves before the people as being the ones commissioned to speak for God. But, as pointed out in the previous issue of this magazine, they have failed God and failed as proclaimers of his kingdom by approving a man-made political organization, the League of Nations (now the United Nations), as "the political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth."

    However, Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a "prophet" to warn them. This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief.

    Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?

  • Consfearacy

    g93 3/22 pp. 3-4 Why So Many False Alarms?

    Does the failure of such predictions to come true convict as false prophets those who made them, within the meaning of Deuteronomy 18:20-22? That text reads: “The prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: ‘How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?’ when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak.”

    There are some who make spectacular predictions of the world’s end to grab attention and a following, but others are sincerely convinced that their proclamations are true. They are voicing expectations based on their own interpretation of some scripture text or physical event. They do not claim that their predictions are direct revelations from Jehovah and that in this sense they are prophesying in Jehovah’s name. Hence, in such cases, when their words do not come true, they should not be viewed as false prophets such as those warned against at Deuteronomy 18:20-22. In their human fallibility, they misinterpreted matters.

  • chrisjoel

    ....HUmmm.... Me thinks I know why the JW apologists ignore much that is presented to them!

    ITS BECAUSE: They come on this board and see all kinds of xjws NOT all "speaking in agreement" and compare us with the organization and congregation, where they all "speak in agreement" and are all "unified", and all "fitly tied together in the same mind". So, how can we have the TRUTH IF WE are part of a free for all? ....so...it really doesnt matter what is presented to them we are a evil slave that are running amok! Its all irrelevant to them and they are proving a point by being here that we are disorganized and therefore of satan the devils table.

    PLEASE! Listen man, there is No organization here because for the most part were not a publishing company! We learned what we believed wasnt accurate. NOW, after coming to that realization, we are all on different paths. SUre some of us are born agains, athiests, agnostics(me), and still, some of us KEEP some of the previous beliefs FOR whatever reason. WE DONT NEED to all be on the same page IN THIS FORUM! We dont need to agree with everyone like we are still sitting at the hall.

    But one thing we do know is that we didnt find the TRUTH in the organization of JWs. We are individuals here. We havent developed some mission statement or company charter that says we do battle with the JWs. Our families are still in the org and this ties us to them. Whether we like it or not its what we live with. Some have developed a militaristic approach sure...theyre pissed at the WTS!

    Anyways , at the end of the day, you have to pull your head out of the sand and realize THIS isnt supposed to be compared to the JW "organization" , its keeping you from a balanced non biased view. .....btw were not the ones that printed all that stuff ok!

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