TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Chalam

  GOrwellWhat do Trinitarians believe are the difference(s) between being "begotten" and being "created," in the sense of not having existence, and now existing? How can a "begotten" Person in the Godhead be uncreated?

  The scriptures actually say Jesus was begotten, not created John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5

  The words used is monogenés which means "ony born" or "only child".

  Jesus is Creator, not the created. The NWT lies and adds a word to Jesus creation "all [other] things" Colossians 1:16

  Jesus is the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega just as the Father is Revelation 1, Revelation 21, Revelation 22

  He did not come after the beginning, He is THE beginning, just as the Father.

  Regarding why He came as a Mediator and indeed, how He can be a Mediator, watch the sermon here

  http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/christ-on-the-cross/jesus-paid-our-debt

  Pastor Mark Driscoll | November 27, 2005 | 01hr:00mn
  8365 page views since over 2 years ago

  “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom…”1 Timothy 2:5-6

  Debt. In considering the word, most people think of their financial debt and their obligations to various debtors. For example, the average twenty-one year-old has five credit cards with an average debt of $3,000, while 23 percent have credit card debt of $3,000 to $7,000, and 10 percent have credit card debt exceeding $7,000.

  In the U.S. there are over four credit cards in circulation for every man, woman, and child. Personal debt, excluding mortgages, averages $19,000 per household, over half of which is on credit cards. And, over 40 percent of all U.S. families spend more each year than they earn. Simply, Americans are in financial debt.

  What many people are unaware of, however, is their spiritual debt. God made each of us to honor Him by living in obedience to Him. Each time we fail in this obligation through sins of both omission and commission in our words, deeds, and motives, we accrue a spiritual debt to God. This is what Jesus was speaking of when He prayed that God would forgive our debts to Him (Matt. 6:12). Forgiveness of our debts to God requires a mediator, redeemer, and a ransom.

  Mediator

  The mediator is the person who is the go-between, or “middleman,” between us and God to mediate our differences and bring about resolution. As an example, Job speaks of an angel as a ransoming mediator (Job 33:23-26). To effectively represent both God and man/humankind, the mediator had to be both God and man. Therefore, God became the man Jesus Christ, who alone is the mediator between people and God (1 Tim. 2:5-6; Heb. 9:15; 12:24).

  Redeemer

  The redeemer is the person who pays the ransom for the debtor. Throughout Scripture, God is spoken of as our Redeemer (Job 19:25; Ps. 19:14; 78:35; Isa. 41:14; 43:14; Jer. 50:34). Throughout church history it has been continually accepted that Jesus is our Redeemer, though there has been widespread debate as to whom Jesus paid our debt.

  Origen (185-254) taught that Satan held humanity captive and so Jesus paid off Satan. Gregory the Great (540-604) further developed this concept by saying that Jesus came disguised as a man to trick Satan like a worm on a hook to capture the devil. Anselm (1033-1109) strongly denounced the teachings that Satan has authority over God, God owes Satan, or that God deals with Satan like a deceptive coward instead of a strong warrior. The Bible never states to whom Jesus, our Redeemer, paid our debt. But, it seems logical that since our debt is to God, our debt was paid to God.

  Ransom

  The ransom is the price that must be paid to God for our debt. The problem, however, is that Scripture plainly says that no human being can redeem the life of another person by paying their ransom to God because only God can accomplish such a feat (Ps. 49:7-15). Because Jesus is both God and man, He alone is able to pay the price for our ransom through His sinless life and substitutionary death (1 Peter 1:18-19). Jesus, as well as other New Testament

  • Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

  • 1 Tim. 2:5-6 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom…

  • Heb. 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

  Lastly, this ransoming work of Jesus our Mediator and Redeemer means that we belong to God because Jesus has purchased us (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23). The result is a new life lived by the empowering grace of Jesus through the empowering presence of the Holy Spirit, so that we can enjoy the great honor of living in obedience to God so that He receives glory and we receive joy as we live in congruence with God and His purposes for us.

  Blessings in Christ,

  Stephen
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  designs

  Stephen, every religious system has what they consider a solution to life's ups and downs and the end of life and beyond.

  In Judaism all of the human family already belong to God, who else, and all are already taken care of and will be greeted at the gates of Paradise by Adam who will escort his children to Paradise or to a temporary correctional condition and then escort them to Paradise. The Jew who lives by the Torah goes straight in to Paradise or Gan Eden as does the Gentile who lives by the Laws of Noah. There we have our personal angels as attendants.

  In the NT we are told No No only a very few gain Paradise and the majority of humanity end in Hell for all eternity sent there by Jesus. Judaism presents a much nicer solution, and Adam is much kinder than Jesus.
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  designs

  See how Shunning works in the Fundamentalist world, are they really just cross wearing JWs.
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  GOrwell

  Chalam,

  Agreed that the scriptures say Jesus was begotten. My question though, was how that differs from being created, in terms of not having existence, and then existing at some point in time. This may be an impossible question to answer.

  In a legal sense, wouldn't each party of the covenant (God & Humanity) need to be represented equally by an impartial party, who ensures both sides fulfil the terms of the covenant? Like a mediator? How could the covenant be mediated if one party was the same as the mediator?

  Coming from a WT perspective, how would a perfect Man not be able to fulfil the requirements of a sinless life, to atone for Adam's life? Why does it need to be a God-man?

  Thanks for the info about that sermon. I'll have to give it a listen this morning.

  GOrwell
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  Ding

  GOrwell,

  Who can be a better mediator between God and man than a person who is both?

  Jesus didn't just atone for Adam's sin.

  He had to atone for your sins, my sins, and for the sins of the entire world.

  1 John 2:2: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

  How could a mere man do all that?
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  PSacramento

  Agreed that the scriptures say Jesus was begotten. My question though, was how that differs from being created, in terms of not having existence, and then existing at some point in time. This may be an impossible question to answer.

  Something that is begotten is, by nature, what begot it ( human begets a human).

  Something that is created is just that created and has it' own nature ( we creat a story, create a jar from clay, etc.)

  Jesus was begotten by God and as such, Jesus is God because his nature is God and he can be nothing else but God.

  Now, God is not a "species" and as such Jesus is not "a" God as a human that is begotten from another human is "a" human.

  Jesus is God because he can't be anything else.
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  GOrwell

  Three questions :

  If Jesus is begotten of God, wouldn't that mean that at some point in the past, he was unexisting? If Jesus has the same nature as God, I would think that would include immortality. Yet, Jesus did not receive immortality until after his resurrection. How can this be?

  And yes, Jesus atoned for the entire sin of the world. Yet, (again from a WT view), what was lost was a perfect Man in Adam. Thus, Jesus, being equally a perfect man, could provide an exact replacement for Adam. No?
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  brotherdan

  Jesus did not receive immortality until after his resurrection.

  The Bible never says this.
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  djeggnog

  @designs:

  In Judaism all of the human family already belong to God, who else, and all are already taken care of and will be greeted at the gates of Paradise by Adam who will escort his children to Paradise or to a temporary correctional condition and then escort them to Paradise. The Jew who lives by the Torah goes straight in to Paradise or Gan Eden as does the Gentile who lives by the Laws of Noah. There we have our personal angels as attendants.

  Well, if you've ever read the Bible with understanding, then you surely must know that these ideas are unscriptural, dumb really.

  In the NT we are told No No only a very few gain Paradise and the majority of humanity end in Hell for all eternity sent there by Jesus. Judaism presents a much nicer solution, and Adam is much kinder than Jesus.

  Not true. If you have ever read the Bible, it is clear to me that you haven't understood "NT" to deny the offspring of Adam, starting with Abel, the opportunity to live in Paradise. I mean, if you don't Jesus to have been lying when he promised one of the two men that hung alongside him on that fateful Friday, Nisan 14, 33 AD, that he would "be with him in Paradise" at Luke 23:43, then you would certainly have to believe that Abel will be among those that will be receiving a resurrection to life here on earth during the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ. In fact, the very NT to which you pointed as being the source of this idea of yours that "the majority of humanity [will] end in Hell for all eternity sent there by Jesus]" states at Acts 24:15 that "there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." This means that Christians have hope that billions of people that have lived and died over the past 6,000 years will receive a resurrection, for all of those in 'hell," that is, those in Hades, those in the memorial tombs, will be given the opportunity to learn righteousness, and although the wicked will have been shown favor by having their lives to make them over according to God's will, some of them will refuse to learn righteousness. (Isaiah 26:9, 10)

  BTW, you must know that Judaism is dead "for all eternity" and so is Adam, but do you?

  @Chalam:

  The scriptures actually say Jesus was begotten, not created John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5

  You're right; none of these scriptures you cited say that Jesus was created. With the exception of Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5, which scriptures you cited in your post for some reason, you're also right that these other scriptures do indicate that Jesus was begotten.

  If you don't mind, please explain why you cited Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5, when neither of these verses say a thing about Jesus having been begotten.

  Acts 13:33:

  That God has entirely fulfilled it to us their children in that he resurrected Jesus; even as it is written in the second psalm, 'You are my son, I have become your Father this day.'

  Hebrews 1:5:

  For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father"? And again: "I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son"?

  The words used is monogenés which means "[only] born" or "only child".

  The Greek word _mo·no·ge·nes´_ is translated "only-begotten" for it refers to an "only" child, even as Paul describes Isaac as being Abraham's "only-begotten" son by Sarah (Hebrews 11:17), which Greek word is also used in describing the relationship of Jephthah's daughter to her father, she being described as "absolutely the only child" (Judges 11:34), in view of the fact that Jephthah had no other children. In describing Jesus at John 1:14, John 3:16 and 1 John 4:9, the apostle John refers to Jesus as being "the only-begotten Son" and "the only-begotten Son of God."

  Jesus is Creator, not the created.

  Then perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining why you reject the words of the apostle John at Revelation 3:14, where he describes Jesus as being (1) "the Amen," (2) "the faithful and true witness" and (3) "the beginning of the creation by God." According to this verse, why do you not conclude that Jesus didn't have a beginning, that he was God's very first creation, the beginning of God's creative works, if that is what the verse says?

  @Ding:

  From a trinitarian perspective, Jesus being both God and man, he is only one who is truly able to mediate between his Father (a distinct Person from Jesus) and human beings.

  Why is it then that it was possible for Jehovah God to use the man, Moses, an imperfect human being, to mediate the Law covenant between Himself and the nation of Israel? What was it exactly do you think that made the man, Jesus, a perfect man, so inferior to Moses that he needed to be both "God and man" in order to mediate a covenant between Himself (as "God") and His anointed followers? And if the function of a mediator is to serve as a go-between that negotiates on behalf of two parties, how could Jesus be viewed as such if he is not only one of the two parties to the New Covenant and also the go-between? In a dissolution of marriage, when putting together the marital settlement agreement, which is a kind of covenant that divides the tangible assets of a divorcing couple, why doesn't the husband also serve as the mediator?

  Having the husband be the mediator would certainly save a little money on the cost of hiring a neutral party to serve as a mediator of the settlement agreement between the husband and the wife, wouldn't it? The ex-husband-to-be wouldn't possibly try to leverage his interests against his ex-wife-to-be, would he? Or maybe the wife can be the mediator since there's no way that the ex-wife-to-be would likely attempt to leverage her interests against her ex-husband-to-be, now would she? Why would humans even bother to hire folks to serve as mediators in collective bargaining agreement for unions and professional sports teams when mediators aren't free, I wonder?

  I mean, since you're saying stupid stuff, let's get totally stupid and just define the English language word "mediator" at 1 Timothy 2:5 in such a way that it is totally meaningless?

  GOrwell:

  How could the covenant be mediated if one party was the same as the mediator?

  Good question. Like the word, "begotten," has a specific meaning -- it means "to generate" -- the word "mediator" used at 1 Timothy 2:5 also has a specific meaning, and it is synonymous with the word "negotiator," one who acts as a go-between as between two parties.

  I don't see why being both God and man is a requirement of being "truly able" to mediate a covenant between God and men. All of the bi-lateral covenants between God and humanity in the Bible have been mediated just fine with a human serving as mediator. Why is a God-man a needed requirement for the new covenant?

  Another good question. I also don't see why a God-man would be necessary.

  If Jesus is begotten of God, wouldn't that mean that at some point in the past, he was unexisting? If Jesus has the same nature as God, I would think that would include immortality. Yet, Jesus did not receive immortality until after his resurrection. How can this be?

  One could add that Jesus could not have possessed the divine nature when he was here on earth for a number of reasons, one of these reasons being that which the apostle Paul expressed at Romans 8:34: "Christ Jesus is the one who died" and in speaking about the resurrection of the dead, Paul also indicated with respect to Jesus' resurrection at 1 Corinthians 15:53 Jesus was "mortal," when he stated that "this which is mortal must put on immortality," which means that Jesus didn't receive immortality until after his death.

  Gorwell wrote:

  Jesus did not receive immortality until after his resurrection.

  @brotherdan wrote:

  The Bible never says this.

  Really? Tell me this: If Jesus had immortality already, then it would not have been possible for anyone to have put him to death, now would it? Can someone immortal die, or do the words "immortal" and "immortality" mean something different in the English language than the equivalent words do in the Greek language?

  It should be noted that, at 1 Timothy 6:16, the apostle Paul also described the resurrected Jesus Christ, as being "the one alone having immortality," and even the apostle John, at Revelation 1:17, 18, adds to this point in speaking about Jesus' death, saying that he was "the First and the Last" to be raised up and have immortality bestowed upon him by God. So if Jesus died, then he was a mortal human being and he couldn't have been immortal, but if it is after Jesus' resurrection that the Bible goes on to say that he became the one human being to have immortality, then how can you say that "the Bible never says this"?

  @djeggnog
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  notverylikely

  then it would not have been possible for anyone to have put him to death, now would it?

  With God, all things are possible.