I'm going to add, you CAN'T BRUSH ASIDE these contradictions. Either an understanding is wrong, or they are exposing something. God's word can have contradictions to expose something, to redflag the true truthseekers. Those who are looking for the TRUTH and not trying to prove what THEY want to believe. Sometimes the truth hurts, and why agree or entertain ideas which are not what you want to be true, unless only looking for the truth. Also tests of faith, if your out of your comfort zone, do you have TRUE faith in God to guide you? Or will you cling and prevent the spirit of truth from working?
TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else
@djeggnog: Do you really think any of us accept you as a spokesperson for Jehovah's Witnesses? You have broken every rule in the GB rule book by being here. Thankfully there are reasoning people like Undisfellowshipped who direct us to material confirming current JW thinking on this issue. I may not agree totally with his point of view, but I tell you djeggnog, I would not close the door on him if he came to reason with me. I am astounded by your arrogance and boastfulness.. ashamed that I was taken in by your apparently erudite presentations. "Come let us reason together.." remember that old addage?
Thank you again for your thought-provoking posts. I love seeing and considering other people's viewpoints.
After all, I definitely do not know everything and there is much yet for me to learn about the Bible and God.
What you said truly has made me decide to look at those Scriptures again with fresh eyes. (Did I just start a new figure of speech? lol)
I will ask God to guide me in finding the correct understanding of those passages.
After I have re-considered those verses more in-depth, I will let you know if my understanding changes or if I learn anything different or new (which is almost 100% sure to happen).
Dammit, you messed me up. I'm TRYING to get the Active Topics page to have just my name as last poster running up and down it. I had almost achieved it and then you posted, UnDie, and messed me up!
I'm trying again, wish me luck!
Thank you very much for your kind words.
And any time you want to discuss anything about the Bible or Watchtower Publications, I am here. We may not always agree, but I will never be harsh or rude or attack you.
UnDie, you are ruining my chances of reaching my goal! Stop it!
Just so I can further examine djeggnog's beliefs (even if he no longer wishes to participate), I am going to attempt to summarize his beliefs about Jesus here (taken from all of his posts here in this thread):
This is what I understand djeggnog to be teaching about Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit:
1:) There is only One Person who is Jehovah, and that Person is the Father of Jesus.
2:) There was a time when only Jehovah existed alone, without His Son.
3:) Jehovah's first creation was His Only-Begotten Son, His Firstborn, the Word, who was Michael the Archangel.
4:) When John 1:1-3 says that The Word was "a god" in the beginning, before one thing ever came into existence, what John really meant was that The Word was a godlike angel, not that He was a real god. So, since The Word was not a real god yet, it did not contradict Scriptures such as Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 44:4-8.
5:) Michael shared the same "divine" spirit nature that God and all of the angels have.
6:) But, at this point (In the beginning, John 1:1), only Jehovah has the "Divine Quality" and Immortality.
7:) When Jehovah declared at Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 44:4-8, 44:24 that He alone is the only God, and there are no other gods in existence, what Jehovah really meant was that there were no other immortal gods in existence.
8:) The defining characteristic of whether or not someone is a "Real God" is if that person has immortality.
9:) What Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13-14 really meant was that Jesus was one of the angels (even though the plain reading of those texts says Jesus is NOT an angel)
10:) While Jesus was on earth, He was 100% a human being, and had NONE of the Divine Nature or Divine Quality in Him.
11:) Upon Jesus' resurrection, He was given a new immortal spirit body and He then became a 2nd Immortal God on His own right, Jesus became a 2nd Real God now.
12:) Christians now serve and follow TWO Real Gods (even though the New Testament teaches that Christians serve and follow only ONE Real God).
13:) The 144,000 will eventually also become Real Gods when they are resurrected and receive immortality.
14:) Whenever people give "worship" or "obeisance" to Jesus, it has to be a lesser, lower form than that which is given to Jehovah. (No explanation for WHY this has to be was given by djeggnog).
15:) However, Jehovah has a different standard of Exclusive Devotion for His angels, and He allows them to render full worship to Jesus. (even though Jesus and the entire Bible declares that angels worship Jehovah, and that Jehovah ALONE should receive worship)
16:) What Revelation 5:13-14 and John 5:23 really meant was that you should only honor Jesus to a lesser degree than you honor Jehovah.
17:) The Holy Spirit is Jehovah's impersonal active force, and any time that the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit as a Person, what it really means is that the Spirit is an impersonal active force that is being personified in a figure of speech.
If I have misrepresented any of djeggnog's beliefs, please let me know.
Undisfellowshipped - No problem. I didn't want to overwhelm with scriptures, but may post later on, but here are a few questions, which originate in the scriptures. I'm very glad to see your willing to look at it with fresh eyes. I'll say, it's a very long and elaborate path on seeking these answers. You WON'T find the answers from any website or human at this point of time (if so they are near impossible to locate). Must rely on scriptures (interlinear is a must of the old testament to get through some of the confusion) and faith in God directing you to the truth.
Is the God of Abraham an angel? IS God an angel or God as we think of (originator and creator of everything in existance)
WHO are the two cherubs on the ark?
How are some saved from the founding of the world? (before Jesus could die)
How did Egypt pierce him? (as recorded in Revelation)
Why do some scriptures say Egypt is God's people, Assyria his sword, and Israel his inheritence?
Why would a spirit creature be known as a scapegoat?
Feel free to PM me if you feel your learning things you haven't been taught before on this and want to see if I see the same thing or not.
For djeggnog's benefit, and for the benefit of anyone else who would like this information, I am going back to my original list of things I was attempting to demonstrate using the New World Translation Reference Bible.
After each point below, I have included the NWT Scripture references which djeggnog or anyone else can look up in their own Bible:
* There is only One True God by Nature. (Isaiah 46:9; Isaiah 45:5; Isaiah 44:6-8; Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 45:21-23; Deuteronomy 32:39; Deuteronomy 4:35,39; Joshua 22:22; Psalm 50:1; 1 Kings 8:60; Galatians 4:8-9; Romans 1:20,25; Isaiah 42:8; Isaiah 48:11)
* There are NOT three different Gods. (James 2:19; Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:28-32; Matthew 4:10; Exodus 20:3-5; Deuteronomy 4:15-19; Deuteronomy 11:16-17; Deuteronomy 17:2-7; Deuteronomy 30:17-18)
* There are Three Distinct Persons who share equally the Nature of God. ([JESUS:] John 1:1-3; John 1:18; John 10:30; John 20:28-29; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Philippians 2:6; John 17:5; John 5:23; Hebrews 1:6; [HOLY SPIRIT:] John 16:13-16; 2 Corinthians 3:3-18; Acts 13:1-4; Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11)
* However, each Person of the Trinity does have His own "role" or "function." The Son willingly obeys the Father. The Spirit willingly obeys the Father and the Son. (This is known as "Functional Subordinationism") (Psalm 110:1-4; 1 Corinthians 11:3; John 14:28; John 15:20; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; John 20:17; Revelation 3:12; John 16:13-16)
* Each of the Three Persons is called "Jehovah" (or "Yahweh") and "God" in the Bible. ([JESUS:] Hebrews 1:10; Romans 10:12-13; 1 Peter 2:3; Philippians 2:9-11; [HOLY SPIRIT:] 2 Corinthians 3:3-18)
I've defended the Trinity until I was blue in the face. But I think the most sense came from an email that was sent to me by Ray Franz. He said that while he has never come across historical evidence that the 1st century Christians ever believed in the Trinity, he also recognizes that the Bible seems to teach things that could support the idea. However, he said that he prefers to remain silent where the scriptures are silent.
I agree with Undisfellowshiped that there are MANY MANY scriptures that seem to prove the Trinity. There are scriptures that call the Holy Spirit God, Jesus God, and the Father God. However, the EXPLICIT doctrine is not given. Why is this? I think that maybe it's not really important to know the very nature of God.
Do I understand eternity? No. How could I? It's beyond my frame of reference. Do I deny that God is eternal? Never. Do I understand the Trinity? Not completely. But if God wanted to exist in the form of a Trinity, could He? Yes he could.
I think the tendency to be dogmatic on both sides is very prevelent. I have been on both sides of the issue. Right now what seems to make the most sense to me is that I love Jesus. I love the Father. And I love the Holy Spirit. Do I understand their nature? No. But I love them and their roles all the same. Will God judge me for not understanding his nature (which is beyond our understanding?) I really hope not. I just want to follow the Christian life and love God for who He is. Beyond that, I pray that He will bring me into a greater knowledge of Him one day.