@The Finger:
I think you wrongly assumed I said I had a dead faith. I have a living faith the works follow. Good works. A dead faith is not a faith.
Not really. I made no such assumption at all. Your faith is a dead faith. I did not stutter.
Maybe the lady I mentioned has not understood everything but i'm sure she believes in the Jesus of the bible and she believes that those whom she takes the bread and wine to are his brothers. Just as you told me in a previous post to see those who are his brothers at the hall who partake of the emblems. No other way to identify them as the teachings change and what one believed yesterday would be unscriptural today.
All of this what you just said here is just nonsense and I think you knew this when you were composing your post. Come on now: How can you equate the Eucharist with the celebration of the Lord's evening meal? The teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses do not change, but adjustments in our understanding of the Bible are made from time to time.
I don't join with the congregation in the preaching work at this point in my life. I cannot preach things that my conscience would not permit. I cannot see the sign of Christ's presence, coming, invisible presence or whatever you wish to term it.
I don't wish to "term" anything. If you should have a favorite term, then please use that one. It is clear to me that you do not comprehend the meaning of the sign of Christ's presence, for you are here mentioning, in the same breath, as it were, Jesus' coming, when the two are not the same. As far as Jesus' presence being an invisible one, this is true, but as far as "the sign of Christ's presence," it is not invisible, and one would have to be blind not to see it.
In the August 15th Watchtower of 1968. The Chronology which was used to support 1975 was given the support of the generation teaching which we had at the time. Later in the book "God's Eternal Purpose Now Triumphing For Man's Good" Published in 1974 and studied at the [book study] 14th Jan 1975. Page 51 The subheading "Evening" of seventh Creative "day" begins, 4026 B.C.E. Page 131 Subheading "Morning" of seventh Creative "day" begins, 526 B.C.E.
Nowhere in these chronologies to which you refer and nowhere in the Bible did you learn that mortal man had the inherent ability to do more than read the times and the seasons. Nowhere in the Bible did you ever read that any human being, including Jesus Christ himself, was in a position to divulge the 'day and hour' of Jesus' coming, which will be visible, btw, not invisible. (Mark 13:32) So if you should have read something in a WTS publication that persuaded you that it was giving you to day and hour of Jesus' coming, then that would be your fault, for nowhere in any of the publications that Jehovah's Witnesses use or have ever used is the 'day and hour' for Jesus' coming indicated. The only thing a Bible chronology can do is inform you as to where you are in the stream of time and that's all it can do. A Bible chronology is just a way of graphing events for easy reference
In the article that you may have been referencing in your post from the Watchtower dated August 15, 1968, in the article entitled "Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?" the following comment is made in paragraph 32 (page 500):
[N]ot until after this event [of Eve's being created after Adam] did the sixth creative day come to an end. Exactly how soon after Adam’s creation is not disclosed. "After that [Adam and Eve’s creation] God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day." (Gen. 1:31) After the sixth creative day ends, the seventh one begins."
So in the context of this article, what is the point being made here? That if the year 1975 should mark the end of 6,000 years, then one would expect the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ to begin at the beginning of the last 1,000-year period of God's seventh rest day. But even if our calculation of 6,000 years should be 100% correct, what's missing? What don't we know? Genesis 1:31 says that it was "after" the human pair had been created that God saw everything that he had made was very good, and only then did the sixth creative day come to an end.
So we might be able to calculate when Adam was created -- 4026 BC -- but what you do not know is when Eve was created. I'll tell you one thing that we do know in view of the fact that the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ has not yet begun: We know that this is the year 2010, so that if 1975 accurately marks 6,000 years, that Eve's creation could not have been occurred any earlier than 35 years after Adam's creation. Do you not understand what I'm saying to you here?
In saying what he did at Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ knew that we would not be able to calculate the "day and hour" because of one vital piece of information unknown to us and not revealed anywhere in the Bible: The date of Eve's creation. So, then, we logically know in the year 2010 that Eve could not have been created any earlier than 35 years after Adam's creation, but if Eve was created, say, just five years later or 40 years after Adam's creation, then that would logically mean that the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ will not occur until the year 2015. Or don't you understand this?
Like the article stated, "this is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that "concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matt. 24:36) Jehovah's Witnesses haven't dedicated their lives to serve Jehovah until a specific year. Jesus told us to follow him, and that is what we endeavor to do, for only he (or she) "that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved," Jesus tells us at Matthew 24:13.
Both of these teachings, understandings or whatever they are proven false.
I disagree; you are mistaken in your viewpoint of these matters and you will pay for this make with your life. At least that is what I think.
You use similar Chronological teachings to support your views of Christ's invisible presence along with a different viewpoint of the word parousia than I have heard and now in this presence teaching we have a new extended generation idea.
No, I don't, but you're free to believe what you want to believe about my beliefs.
We have talked about the sign and the previous teachings and i believe you said they were unscriptural.
I am going to need you to please be specific here: What exactly did I ever say here about the composite sign that Jesus provided us in the Bible at Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21 that I have said were unscriptural? Please refresh my recollection.
In my view this is your message. If and when I can support it I will preach it. I think in looking at the history considering that God's name and people's lives are at stake to have to accept as truth unscriptural teachings I think falls far short of what Christ requires.
Ok.
@Joey Jo-Jo:
In currently studying the date regarding 607BCE, I have been reading various books, wt and and other sources, and I was wondering if you could show me in the bible:-
1)that jesus in speaking of these gentile times had in mind the seven times of Nebuchadnezzar's madness mentioned in Daniel 4
2)that these seven times were seven years
3)that these years were not ordinary Babylonian calendar years but prophetic years of 360 days each, and therefore 2520 days in total.
4)that these 2,520 days not only applied to the period of Nebuchadnezzar's madness but also would have a greater fulfillment.
5)that in this greater fulfillment days should be counted as years so we get 2,520 years
At Luke 21:24, we read Jesus' words in which he makes specific mention of "the appointed times of the nations": "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." It was in Jerusalem that kings in the royal line of David were said to sit representatively on Jehovah's throne, but Jesus says that "Jerusalem would be trampled on by the nations" until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled," indicating that Jerusalem was being "trampled on" at the time that Jesus spoke these words and that this "trampling" would continue until the fulfillment of these "appointed times of the nations."
Jesus' mention of these "appointed times of the nations" or "times of the Gentiles" (KJV) harken back to the "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy in which the prophet records the words of an angelic "watcher" from heaven, who commanded the chopping down of an immense tree that had been "visible to the extremity of the whole earth," whose "rootstock" or tree stump had been left in the earth bound with iron and copper, so that "seven times" might pass over this tree stump before it was loosed from that which bound it, and thus prevented this tree from growing, "to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind." (Daniel 4:11, 15-17)
In the Bible, trees are often used to represent rulership. For example, at Ezekiel 17:1-24, prophetic reference is there made to the ruler that sat on Jehovah's throne in Jerusalem in the kingdom of Judah, "the treetop of the cedar [tree]," whereby the first of two eagles, Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, plucks off "the top of the young shoots," King Jehoiachin, so that he becomes an exile in Babylon, at which time Babylon's ruler puts Zedekiah on the throne in Jerusalem. But King Zedekiah rebels against Babylon so that he allies himself with the second of the two eagles, the Egyptian ruler, so that Zedekiah is taken captive to Babylon, rendered blind and dies. (Maybe you already know this part of the story.)
Now while a portion of this prophecy underwent fulfillment, in this prophecy Jehovah plucks off "a tender one" from this cedar tree, which "twig" represents the Messianic king, and goes on to transplant this "twig" upon "a high and lofty mountain," that is, upon heavenly Mount Zion, where this "tender one" grows into "a majestic cedar." This prophecy of Ezekiel's has had complete fulfillment in that Jesus was enthroned in the kingdom of the heavens as God's Messianic king in 1914. Not many people are interested in Bible prophecy, but I'm just pointing out to you that the reference in Daniel's prophecy to this "tree" that was cut down here is to rulership.
Just as is the case with many Bible prophecies, the interruption of Nebuchadnezzar's rulership for a period of time by his madness as represented by the vision of the tree being cut down was cut down for "seven times" requires that one learn what each of these "seven times" represent in the Bible, and by examining what God has provided for us in His word, we are able to do just that. At Revelation 12:6, 14, we note, first, that God's "woman" flees from the dragon/serpent into the wilderness, where she is fed for "a thousand two hundred and sixty days" and, second, that the length of time in which God's "woman" is fed there in the wilderness is expressed in a different way, as "a time and times and half a time."
It is evident that if a "time" (1), "times" (2 x 1 or 2) and "half a time" (1/2) or 3-1/2 times equals 1,260 days that, when 1,260 days is divided by 3-1/2, then each of these "times" would have to be equal to 360 days (for 360 x 3.5 = 1,260). Since these "seven times" that Nebuchadnezzar's rulership would be interrupted would be twice as long as this, then it would be 3.5 x 2, or 7 (times) x 360 (days) = 2,520 (days) that this angelic "watcher" was informing Nebuchadnezzar that he would be removed from his throne, which prophecy was fulfilled in that for seven lunar years Nebuchadnezzar's rulership, as represented by that tree, was essentially "chopped down," and after "seven times" had passed, he was loosed from what had bound him (his madness) and restored as Babylon's ruler.
Remember though that this prophecy about the tree had prophetic significance though, for Daniel 4:17 indicates that its "intent" was for the purpose "that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind." Jesus was that "lowliest one of mankind" that it was God's intent to set up as ruler over "the kingdom of mankind" after the prophetic "seven times" has passed because, first of all, for "the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind," and, second of all, the Most High delegates rulership over the kingdom of mankind 'to the one whom he wants to give it.'
So when Babylon led King Zedekiah in bondage back to Babylon and destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BC, Ezekiel's prophecy at Ezekiel 21:26, 27, then came to be fulfilled with regard to someone sitting representatively on Jehovah's throne in Jerusalem: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him."
Also, in Ezekiel's prophecy, we are able to ascertain that these "seven times" were not 2,520 literal days, for we know that they were prophetic days in that at Ezekiel 4:4-6, when foretelling the number of years when the kingdoms of Israel and Judah would carry the error due for their respective houses, for the house of Israel, God laid upon it 390 days, and the house of Judah, 40 days, but God specifically stated that "a day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you."
What this means is that whereas Nebuchadnezzar's madness lasted for a duration of 2,520 days, the prophetic length of the Gentile nations' trampling upon Jerusalem would last for a duration of 2,520 years, and these "seven times" to which Jesus is actually referring at Luke 21:24 began to be counted in 607 BC when God's rulership in the earth had been interrupted by the Gentile world power of Babylon and this interruption continued through the Gentile world powers of Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome to the Great Britain and American dual world power until 1914, exactly 2,520 years when Jerusalem began to be trampled on.
6)that this 2,520 year period started when Nebuchadnezzar in his 18th regnal year desolated Jerusalem
Well, 2 Kings 25:8 informs us that it was during Nebuchadnezzar's 19th accession year, that is to say, his 18th regnal year, which would have been in the year 607 BC, that Jerusalem was destroyed and left desolate by Babylonian forces, so this 2,520-year period or "seven times" would begin with this destruction of Jerusalem for it was from 607 BC that no king sat on God's throne in Jerusalem, God's rulership having been interrupted by the trampling upon it by the Gentile king of Babylon. Jeremiah foretold that it would be for a period of 70 years that God's people would be held as captives to Babylon, which 70-year period was confirmed in Daniel's prophecy. (Jeremiah 29:10; Daniel 9:1, 2)
Hence, counting back 70 years from when the Jews returned to their homeland in 537 BC, we arrive at the year 607 BC, the date when Nebuchadnezzar, during his 18th regnal year (his 19th accession year) destroyed Jerusalem, bringing to an end the line of Davidic kings that sat representatively on God's throne in Jerusalem.
At Jeremiah 46:2, we learn that it was during the fourth year of the reign of King Jehoiakim's reign that the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar), was victorious over the king of Egypt, Pharaoh Necho; this was in the year 625 BC.
The next year, in 624 BC, Nebuchadnezzar officially ascended to the throne following his father's death, Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year, which was his second accession year, and in his fourth regnal year as king, Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoiakim his vassal king; this was during Jehoiakim's seventh year in 621 BC. However, Jehoiakim's rebellion resulted in Jerusalem being besieged by Babylon and in Jehoiakim's death, so that his son, Jehoiachin, then became Babylon's vassal king during Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year which ended in Nisan 617 BC.
It was then that Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoichin's uncle Mattaniah his vassal king, changing his name of Zedekiah. However, it was during the ninth year of Zedekiah's reign in 609 BC, Nebuchadnezzar's 16th regnal year, that Zedekiah rebelled against Babylon and attempted to ally Judah with Egypt against Babylon, so that the siege against Judah was momentarily halted due to the report regarding Egypt. (Jeremiah 37:5).
But in 607 BC, during Zedekiah's 11th year, Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year, his 19th accession year, Jerusalem was again besieged by Babylon, Jerusalem's wall was successfully breached, and Zedekiah's sons were all slaughtered as Zedekiah watched after which he himself was blinded, bound and led prisoner to Babylon where he died. (2 Kings 25:1, 2, 8-10)
@djeggnog
