Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's organization led by Hoily spirit . It's a magazine printing company taking advantage of people's false hopes
Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?
by flipper 269 Replies latest jw friends
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djeggnog
@flipper:
Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's organization led by [Holy] spirit . It's a magazine printing company taking advantage of people's false hopes.
Is this your view? I'm pretty sure that you didn't mean to write, "people's false hopes," did you? As to Jehovah's Witnesses being a printing company, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I don't have anything at all to do with a printing company. Jehovah's Witnesses is a Christian organization, God's organization, and contrary to what you believe, we are being led by God's holy spirit. I read you comment here as saying that the WTS is a printing company, which is accurate, but in referring to the WTS, you added that you believe it to be "taking advantage of people's ... hopes." Understand that this is your view, I will ask you the same question I asked @The Finger:
Because you do not believe that God's organization -- that is to say, Jehovah's Witnesses -- is led by God's holy spirit, I'd appreciate knowing your answer to the following question: What exactly do you think it means for someone to be led by holy spirit? I'm not sure that you know what this means.
@djeggnog
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flipper
DJEGGNOG- Yes, I meant to write " people's false hopes ". The WT society has perpetuated it's members false hopes by continuing to build these false hopes of a paradise and wrongly extend the " overlapping generation " to extend the length of years they can control Jehovah's Witnesses lives.
If someone is led by holy spirit it means they are a spiritual person within themselves. You don't need an organization to feel holy spirit within yourself. Any person can have an individual relationship with God , not based on approval by imperfect men running a mind control printing company. NOWHERE in the Bible does it state God has an organization with rules governing a group of people's lives ( at least since Moses ancient Israel days ) . God has always dealt with people individually as to whether they are judged righteous or unrighteous.
DJ- If you feel you witnesses are led ny holy spirit- what about the 6.9 billion OTHER non-witnesses on earth ? What are THEY led by ? Will the righteous judge Jehovah destroy 6.9 billion people on this planet just because they are NOT Jehovah's Witnesses ? What makes you any better than me ? Or any OTHER person on this board ? Only 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved alive to share a fantasy paradise ? I think that's pretty delusional thinking
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OnTheWayOut
As to Jehovah's Witnesses being a printing company, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I don't have anything at all to do with a printing company.
You are called a "publisher." You distribute or "place" printed literature for them.
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The Finger
Djeggnog,
When did Russell make this adjustment to believing the invisible presence was in 1914? and could you show me a quote from the Watchtower of the time period that shows this adjustment. Was it before 1914 or after? I understand from your previous posts you have an extensive library of older publications.
"that you do not think it to be your obligation to let folks know that the meaning of the things that they have seen taking place since 1914 signify that the end of this system"
I did. When I was about 10, I done pioneer days, sometimes spending Saturday afternoon alone doing NH or calling on those whom I'd left the magazines with previously. I spent summer holidays in service sometimes doing 10 hour days. I arranged my school schedule so as to join my pioneer brother in the field service in the afternoon. I brought teachers to the hall and witnessed to my classmates. Later I was able to bring workmates to the hall. I dropped out of High School at 16 to devote my time to the preaching work, a life saving work rather than pursue what I really loved to do. I don't subscribe to the view that since 1914 we have seen a composite sign of Christ's invisible presence hence I no longer preach it. In fact I feel ashamed that I preached, by offering the Awake, that the "generation" as we defined it at the time would not pass away as it was part of God's promise. God's name was associated with this error.
"So, seriously, @The Finger, do you think it to be righteous on your part to be dragging this man, Russell, that has been dead for almost 95 years now, who despite all of his flaws and imperfections, was a believer in God's word, a man that did his best to follow the direction that the holy spirit led him and others, as he endeavored to listen to the what the spirit"
I find history an interesting subject maybe you do too. The bible history shows the many flaws of those recorded in it. I don't consider discussion of the bible characters, whether it be David or Peter or Moses as dragging anything. I also don't consider quoting the WT publications and questioning beliefs as unrighteous. Maybe you do?
Well I can't answer the question on the Holy Spirit because I'm sure you'd say I don't have any so I'll let you answer it.
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flipper
OTWO- Exactly. If DJ Mr. Egg is passing out their literature who in the hell printed it ? Holy spirit ? LOL ! None other than the WT Babble & Trick society .
THE FINGER- I agree with you. Russell was flawed and mistaken in his teachings . And the guy who followed him - Rutherford was even MORE delusional and flawed. The whole WT society has been a scam since 1879- for over 130 years now ! Incredible that JW members are so mind controlled they can't see it.
DJ EGGNOG- You didn't show me the courtesy of answering my questions to you . I answered the ones you asked me ! Now show some fruitages of that holy spirit you're eagerly talking about ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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notverylikely
Of course if she has bought a new computer since she scuttled away, her computers internet address (you know all the 333.253.555. etc, will be different, as it is encoded in each computer chip) will not indicate she is a multiple poster.
Point of clarity, that is NOT true. the MAC address is hardcoded into a chip, but the IP isn't and is often the IP the ISP assigns them.
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Essan
DJEggnog said: "The prevailing belief among Adventists that Jesus' presence had begun in 1874 was believed and being taught in those days until Russell, who had survived the deaths of all but Barbour, came to realize that he, Barbour and the Adventists were in error.
Although Barbour decided in 1883 to abandon his teaching in an invisible presence and began to teach the Adventists' view of a visible presence in 1896, Russell made an adjustment in his viewpoint, believing 1914 to be the year of Jesus' invisible presence, so your quoting older publications that say that Russell believed otherwise only suggests that the man's beliefs were not static, but were progressive."
You should really research the things you presume to teach others about. Russell never changed his view that Jesus invisible presence began in 1874.
He said in Studies in the Scriptures:
"Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present , since October 1874, A. D. according to the testimony of the prophets, to those who have ears to hear it" - The Battle of Armageddon, (SS-4), 1912 ed., p. 621
And the Society continued to teach that Jesus had returned invisiblly and was present from 1874 for at least 15 years after Russell's death!
"The Scriptures show that the second presence [of the Lord] was due in 1874 . . . . This proof shows that the Lord has been present since 1874" --The Watch Tower, 1 March 1923, page 67
"Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874". --The Watch Tower, 1 January 1924, page 5
"The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 AD. This proof is specifically set out in the booklet entitled Our Lord's Return.- Prophecy, 1929, p. 65, 66.
What Russell predicted was Armageddon in 1914 - the very visible destruction of the world by Christ - never the beginning of his invisible presence, which he consistently claimed began in 1874, as did the Society for many years after him. According to Fred Franz, 1874 was Society doctrine until as late as 1943!
"It is true that the editor and publisher of Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Second Presence calculated that the "presence" or parousia of the heavenly bridegroom began in the year 1874 C.E .
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In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book "The Truth Shall Make You Free." In its chapter 11, entitled "The Count of Time" it did away with the insertion of 100 years into the period of the Judges and went according to the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and accepted the spelled-out numbers of the Hebrew Scriptures. This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man's existence into the decade of the 1970's. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia." -
God's Kingdom Of A Thousand Years Has Approached. 1973. pp. 206, 209
So would you care to correct your false statements? Are you even capable of admitting that you are wrong?
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Essan
DJ, in light of the above, you might find it educational to review this thread:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/180001/1/First-reference-to-Christs-return-in-1914
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djeggnog
@flipper:
Here's what you wrote in your previous post:
Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's organization led by [Holy] spirit . It's a magazine printing company taking advantage of people's false hopes.
Now in follow-up you write the following:
Yes, I meant to write " people's false hopes ". The WT society has perpetuated it's [members'] false hopes by continuing to build these false hopes of a paradise and wrongly extend the "overlapping generation " to extend the length of years they can control Jehovah's Witnesses lives.
You and I are communicating in the English language, but what you and I are not doing is abiding by the rules of the English language. I don't know how much education you have and I don't care, but first you wrote that "Jehovah's Witnesses ... [is] a magazine printing company [that takes] advantage of people's false hopes," and now you write that "the WT society has perpetuated its members false hopes...." It's clear to me here that you don't know that these two statements of yours are mutually exclusive. IOW, they are two different statements. But enough about that; you clearly do not like the WTS and see no problem with declaring Jehovah's Witnesses to be "members" of the WTS.
Those folks that send emails out to marks willing to provide their name, telephone number, bank routing number and bank account number to some benefactor in Nigeria that recently died leaving millions of dollars to be disposed of clueless trustees with no one else to care for this money are taking advantage of peoples' naivete (or hopes, if you prefer), but this naivete on their part isn't a false naivete, but their naivete is quite real. Whatever.
So what you were attempting to express in your post is your belief that the WTS -- and not Jehovah's Witnesses -- is guilty, in your opinion, of taking advantage or exploiting the yearning in many people to live in a world where only righteousness will dwell, and so you feel that by the WTS rousing in people the hope of living in a world free of wickedness through its magazine printing company that it is subjecting people to injury by implanting what you believe to be false hopes in them.
In that case, I suppose you could also make the same accusation against any company that publishes tracts, brochures, booklets, magazines or books for any Christian group, in which contain the false hope of human immortality, which is the very same lie with which Eve was deceived, and which continues to deceive and exploit the ignorance of many people today. Jehovah's Witnesses share with people that their dead loved ones are not in purgatory or suffering in a hellfire, but are really dead, comforting them with the resurrection hope that the Bible teaches.
I just love the fact that many of the folks that hear the many Bible truths that are connected with mankind's salvation are first motivated to tell their family members and friends about what things they have learned, and then want to share Bible truths with others as do all Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus' resurrection was attested to by all of the gospel writers and the hundreds of people that saw him after his resurrection. Consequently, our faith is that because "Christ has been raised up from the dead, ... in the Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:20-22)
But you believe the hope of living forever on a paradise earth to be a false hope, and you believe the interest of Jehovah's Witnesses in trying to determine what it was Jesus meant at Matthew 24:34 by the words "this generation" to be a case of the WTS trying to control the lives of Jehovah's Witnesses, but how so? Telling someone that God is a trinity and threatening eternal torment in a hellfire to keep the faithful in line seems to me to be an attempt to control the lives of Catholics, Baptists, Seventh-Day Adventists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc., but you don't seem to be railing against Catholics, Baptists, Seventh-Day Adventists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc., for both lying and terrorizing folks like you do against Jehovah's Witnesses by telling folks the truth about what things the Bible teaches.
Did you know that Jehovah's Witnesses can all of them stop attending meetings at the Kingdom Hall at any time they wish to do so, can stop engaging in field service activity of all sorts, including the pioneer and missionary work, at any time they wish to do so and not one of them will be subject to disfellowshipment for doing so? You make it sound as if Jehovah's Witnesses are being forced to be Jehovah's Witnesses, but this is not true at all. Like Peter said at Luke 6:68, "Whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life."
Frankly, @flipper, I actually want to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, want to attend meetings with fellow believers and want to preach the word, and those who are Jehovah's Witnesses today want to be Jehovah's Witnesses, want to attend meetings with fellow believers and want to preach the world. The WTS and no one else is controlling any of us or forcing any of us to be Jehovah's Witnesses any more so than the WTS is controlling you or forcing you to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. If you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then this proves you to be a liar when you make the claim that the WTS is controlling anyone to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Now are you stumbled over my telling you this? Did you think I should have sugar-coated what I just said to you here, or maybe watered down what I said a little so that what I said to you didn't sound like a denunciation? I took personally your accusation that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I am out there deceiving folks whenever I tell them about God's promise of a paradise earth. You were accusing me of lying to folks, misleading them. Furthermore, I think it to be very hypocritical on your part to be here decrying Jehovah's Witnesses for what things they do as a result of their faith in Jehovah and in His son when you yourself formerly did these same things that you are now criticizing Jehovah's Witnesses for doing. The purpose of this thread that you started here was to ridicule the WTS, first, and Jehovah's Witnesses, second, but your language skills aside -- the apostles Peter and John are described as being "unlettered and ordinary," too -- I think you're bitter for making the choices that you yourself made, and now you believe yourself to be without God and without hope, and will likely be one of those that will perish forever. (Acts 4:13; Ephesians 2:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
Paul was a blasphemer and he was able to change. As I see it, you can change, too. But you need a Bible study with someone that is competent to teach you all of the counsel of God using words that you will be able to understand, because I would doubt from reading what things you have written to this thread (and to other threads) that you completed high school, which would explain why it is you were unable to articulate what things you wanted to say to me intelligently as someone that understands the "mechanics" of the English language, as would those that have completed high school. (IOW, that you might have just been a lousy student doesn't explain this inability on your part to articulate your point of view!)
I don't know how true this is -- God knows -- but I really don't think anyone took the time to explain some of the more hard to understand things that the Bible teaches and your opinions today are based on an incomplete knowledge of the truth. You don't have to pretend to be someone that you're not when you talk to me. Bluster I understand, but you're lousy at concealing it.
In my previous post I asked you the following question:
What exactly do you think it means for anyone to be led by holy spirit?
I indicated that I wasn't not sure that you knew what it means for someone to be "led by holy spirit," although you used this expression when you wrote:
Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's organization led by [Holy] spirit .
But this was how you responded to my question:
If someone is led by holy spirit it means they are a spiritual person within themselves. You don't need an organization to feel holy spirit within yourself. Any person can have an individual relationship with God , not based on approval by imperfect men running a mind control printing company. NOWHERE in the Bible does it state God has an organization with rules governing a group of people's lives ( at least since Moses ancient Israel days ) . God has always dealt with people individually as to whether they are judged righteous or unrighteous.
In my post to @The Finger, I made several statements in it that would have given you hints as to the answer to my question. Here are four of them: [1] I had mentioned to @The Finger how those six men (Russell, Wendell, Barbour, Stetson, Grew and Storrs) had made a thorough examination of the Scriptures to make clear the meaning of the things recorded in the Bible. [2] I had pointed out how @The Finger had come to learn from the holy spirit about the composite sign that has been in evidence until now since 1914. [3] I told @The Finger that because the holy spirit had guided him into the truth as to the things that are coming, it is by means of God's spirit that he already knows what's on the horizon. (Matthew 24:30; Luke 21:26) [4] I also told @The Finger how hypocritical it would be on his part to know what the holy spirit has said and yet to keep what things he has learned and come to know to himself. While you posted your message after @The Finger's post, you didn't pick up on any these "hints," but back to my question and your answer:
What exactly do you think it means for anyone to be led by holy spirit?
Your answer:
If someone is led by holy spirit it means they are a spiritual person within themselves.
This statement contains many grammatical errors in it, but I believe I understand your answer, and your answer is not correct, for being led by holy spirit does not mean that someone is a spiritual person within himself (or within herself). The phrase "they are" and the word "themselves" are improper since they are plural pronouns, and because the phrases "someone is" and "a spiritual person" are both singular, they take singular pronouns. So even though what you should have written was --
If someone is led by holy spirit, it means that he or she is a spiritual person within himself or herself.
-- your answer to the question I asked you here is not correct. Your words, "they are a spiritual person within themselves," have absolutely no meaning whatsoever, except maybe to you. This is a concept that you may have developed on your own, but the holy spirit never taught you that one that is led by spirit is a spiritual person within himself or herself. To put this in another way, I am telling you that you never learned this "concept" of being led by spirit from God's holy spirit. If the individual with whom you studied the Bible taught you that this is what is meant by being led by spirit, you were not taught the truth. There are many people that profess to be Christians, too, that are putting faith in man-made concepts and teaching these as doctrines. (Matthew 15:9)
To be led by holy spirit means to walk in harmony with the spirit, but then a similar question arises as to what it means to "walk in harmony with the spirit, right? So to be led by holy spirit means to conform one's life so that it is in harmony with the things that one reads in God's word. Before Jesus came as God's messenger to us, God had communicated His will to human beings by means of both angelic messengers and human messengers called "prophets." Because each message thus communicated to humans originated with God, each such inspired expression or "spirit" would rightly be described as holy.
The Law of Moses was a set of "inspired expressions" from God, He even causing the first ten commandments of a total of 613 commandments to be written on tablets of stone. The Law that God gave to Israel was a perfect law, so that it became clear to Israel that only a perfect man could ever keep the high moral standards it requires perfectly. Consequently, the many sacrifices that were being offered under the Law served to make the Israelites aware of their sinfulness before God. This was the end that the Law served. Since the word "end" here is a synonym for the word "purpose," making the Israelites aware of their need for a redeemer that could release them from the condemnation of sin and death that they had inherited from Adam was the purpose that the Law served.
It was by means of the Law that God taught the Jews that they were all sinners, and that they could not be declared righteous by their fully carrying out the works that the Law required of them. By his having kept the inspired expressions of God that were contained in the Law perfectly, Jesus demonstrated by his righteousness toward the Law that he could redeem the sins of all of Adam's offspring, and based on their faith in his ransom, that they could finally obtain a release them from sin and death, and thus be declared righteous by God based on the merit of their Redeemer, Jesus. So, as Romans 10:4 says, Christ was "the end of the law," the reason -- the purpose -- for which those inspired expressions of God had been given to God's people.
At Matthew 4:4, 4:7 and 4:10, three times Jesus made reference to inspired expressions of God as were contained in the Law by introducing each of them with the words "It is written...," before going on to quote from the Law. Each one of these inspired expressions that Jesus quoted had been written down by Moses just as he had received them from God. So even though Jesus had been quoting from the Law, it was just as David had stated at 2 Samuel 23:2: "The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me, and his word was upon my tongue." IOW, Jesus was quoting from the Law (Deuteronomy 8:3, Deuteronomy 6:16, and Deuteronomy 10:20), but in what things he said to the Devil at Matthew 4:4, 4:7 and 4:10, respectively, God's holy spirit was speaking through Jesus on that occasion.
The same thing is true about one of the inspired expressions of God that the apostle Paul quoted from the Law in what he says at Romans 7:7: "I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: 'You must not covet.'" Note that Paul personifies "the Law" here in his saying that "the Law ... said: 'You must not covet,'" since an inanimate object, like the Law of Moses, does not have a mouth or vocal chords that enable it to speak like a human being, but this figure of speech -- personification -- is often used in the Bible to convey the thought that one's utterance is an inspired expression of God as Paul does here at Romans 7:7 in his pointing out that "the Law ... said: 'You must not covet,'" quoting from Exodus 20:17.
I have said that to be led by holy spirit means to conform one's life so that it is in harmony with the things that one reads in God's word, but during the first century AD, inspired expressions from God were delivered by means of a special revelation, such as through a vision or a dream. For example, we read at Acts 10:19: "As Peter was going over in his mind about the vision, the spirit said: 'Look! Three men are seeking you.'" We read about another special revelation that had been given to the evangelizer Philip, at Acts 8:29 we read how it was he came to join himself to the chariot of a Jewish proselyte, an Ethiopian eunuch, that had been at the time reading from the book of Isaiah, without really understand what he had been reading: "So the spirit said to Philip: 'Approach and join yourself to this chariot.'" And what did Philip, in turn, do in response to this divine command that he received? He allowed himself to be led by the holy spirit and went on to join himself to the eunuch's chariot.
A prophet named Agabus brought a divine message that he had received by special revelation to Paul that served to warn Paul, who was preparing to go up to visit the brothers in Jerusalem, about the things that would take place, and in delivering this inspired utterance to Paul, Agabus takes the girdle that Paul would normally wear about his waist -- the strip of cloth that could be used to hold money and other items -- and uses it to tie up his own feet and hands. At Acts 21:10, 11, we read: "But while we were remaining quite a number of days, a certain prophet named Ag'a·bus came down from Ju·de'a, and he came to us and took up the girdle of Paul, bound his own feet and hands and said: 'Thus says the holy spirit, "The man to whom this girdle belongs the Jews will bind in this manner in Jerusalem and deliver into the hands of people of the nations."'" Here, the holy spirit spoke through Agabus. And what did Paul, in turn, do in response to this divine warning that he was just given? He allowed himself to be led by the holy spirit and went on up to Jerusalem anyway, despite his knowing that it was possible that he would die in Jerusalem.
Jesus didn't speak of his own originality, and always creditted his heavenly Father as the source of the things that he spoke. For example, at John 8:26 Jesus stated the following: "I have many things to speak concerning you and to pass judgment upon. As a matter of fact, he that sent me is true, and the very things I heard from him I am speaking in the world." And at John 14:10, as to the One that was the source of the many inspired expressions of God that he spoke, Jesus stated the following: "Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works."
Everything we read in the Bible as to the things that Jesus taught, he spoke my means of holy spirit, speaking on behalf of his heavenly Father. In support of this point, we read at John 20:21-23 what Jesus told his apostles: "'Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending you.' And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: 'Receive holy spirit. If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.'" (John 20:21-23) Notice here that before he goes on to inform his apostles that they were empowered to both forgive sins and to retain sins, Jesus prefaced his remarks by telling them that what he was about to give them was "holy spirit."
To "receive holy spirit" is to accept upon oneself the responsibility of doing the things that the spirit says; it does not mean hearing the inspired expressions of God and then failing to do what things that God requires as do so many dedicated servants of Jehovah that no longer feel obliged to give direct worship to God and feel no need to live up to their dedication. These folks no longer have a desire to conform their lives so that they are in harmony with the things that they read in God's word, which is just another way of saying that these folks have no desire whatsoever to be led by holy spirit, or to put it in even another way, to be obedient to the good news.
We know that during the first century AD, beginning on Pentecost in 33 AD, the holy spirit was poured out and many gifts of the spirit became operative the Christian congregation, but we also know that these spiritual gifts came to an end once they had served their purpose and the Christian congregation became fully established. So the question that is often raised is how, in fact, does the holy spirit speak to Christians today?
It speaks to us the very same way as it spoke to the Christians in Jesus' day, namely, through the Bible. For example, at Mark 12:36, we read Jesus' reference to Psalm 110:1, in that he states that "by the holy spirit David himself said, 'Jehovah said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet."'" Yes, David penned this psalm, and Jesus quoted the words of David's psalm, but the point here is that when Jesus quoted from this psalm at Mark 12:36, he was letting the holy spirit speak. Likewise, when we read Psalm 110:1 today, we would likewise be allowing the holy spirit to speak since these inspired expressions of God would not be our own words, but God's words.
Similarly, the apostle Paul personifies the holy spirit in his saying at Hebrews 10:15-18 that "the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: '"This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days," says Jehovah. "I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,"' it says afterwards: 'And I shall by no means call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind anymore.' Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin." IOW, Paul indicates here that the holy spirit speaks to us, even "bears witness to us," whenever we read a scripture from the Bible, as when Paul quotes Jeremiah 31:33, 34 and introduces these two verses by indicating that this is how the holy spirit speaks or "bears witness" today.
As Jesus stated at John 16:13, "When that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things coming." It is only by our reading the Bible and letting "the spirit of the truth" guide us into all the truth that we are "being led by spirit." (Galatians 5:18) The truth upon which faith is based is found in the Bible, which is a product of God’s holy spirit. So logically then, faith cannot exist apart from the operation of holy spirit. That is why Paul could write: "The fruitage of the spirit [includes] ... faith." (Galatians 5:22)
If there should be something we have read in the Bible that we just don't understand, we can pray to Jehovah that He would give us more holy spirit. Jesus stated at Luke 11:13: "If you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!" If we are familiar with some of God's word, then we already have a measure of God's spirit in us, and as long as we are being led by spirit, and "keep walking by spirit, [we] will carry out no fleshly desire at all." (Galatians 5:16) However, if anyone should leave God's organization, 'what faith that he or she has will be taken away.' (Mark 4:25)
At Mark 13:11, Jesus also makes the point that "when they are leading you along to deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand about what to speak; but whatever is given you in that hour, speak this, for you are not the ones speaking, but the holy spirit is." This is just as applicable today as it was during the first century AD, but unless one is actually being led by spirit so that one is conforming his or her life in such a way that it is in harmony with the inspired expressions that one reads in God's word, how on earth can the holy spirit speak? The holy spirit speaks through us after we will have read and studied the Bible. As Paul said about those of the "little flock": "For all who are led by God's spirit, these are God's sons." (Romans 8:14) However, those led by God's spirit that are of Jesus' "other sheep" are, like Abraham, friends of God. (James 2:23)
You don't need an organization to feel holy spirit within yourself.
This is a strawman argument that you are raising here, for I never said anything at all about an organization. However, this concept of 'feeling the holy spirit within yourself' is unscriptural, not something that the Bible teaches at all.
Any person can have an individual relationship with God , not based on approval by imperfect men running a mind control printing company.
But you are mistaken. God is using an organized group of people to preach the good news of the kingdom. This is a monumental work that is being done worldwide, and without an organization and a "printing company" to help us produce literature that folks can read in their spare time long after we have left them, it really would not be possible to accomplish our ministry to the full.
NOWHERE in the Bible does it state God has an organization with rules governing a group of people's lives ( at least since Moses ancient Israel days ) . God has always dealt with people individually as to whether they are judged righteous or unrighteous.
What you are saying here is not true. Why don't you consider Israel to have been a nation organized under the Law? There were rules in place that governed a system of worship that had not existed before God gave the Law to Israel through Moses. As Exodus 18:21-26 states, Moses appointed "chiefs over thousands, chiefs over hundreds, chiefs over fifties and chiefs over tens," and these chiefs, not Moses, handled the small cases while Moses would handle the big cases. God continues to deal with his people today by means of his organization, and not individually.
If you feel you witnesses are led [by] holy spirit- what about the 6.9 billion OTHER non-witnesses on earth ? What are THEY led by ?
These 6.9 billion people to whom you refer are being led by the god of this world, Satan the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
Will the righteous judge Jehovah destroy 6.9 billion people on this planet just because they are NOT Jehovah's Witnesses ?
From reading 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, we know that the Lord Jesus Christ will, along with powerful angels, bring vengeance upon [1] "those who do not know God" and [2] "those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus." Unless you should not take the Bible as seriously as I do, what this passage means is that more likely than not the majority of these 6.9 billion people "will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."
You question to me here reminds me of the question that the patriarch Abraham put to Jehovah at Genesis 18:23-26, with regard to his destroying the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah when Abraham asked the question, "Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous men in the midst of the city. Will you, then, sweep them away and not pardon the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are inside it? It is unthinkable of you that you are acting in this manner to put to death the righteous man with the wicked one so that it has to occur with the righteous man as it does with the wicked! It is unthinkable of you. Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?"
What did Jehovah say to Abraham is reply? "Then Jehovah said: 'If I shall find in Sod´om fifty righteous men in the midst of the city I will pardon the whole place on their account.'" (Genesis 18:27) Now let's reason on the matter since the standard for salvation today is also based on righteousness, but in connection faith in the ransom provision of Jesus Christ. As we just read above at 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, [1] "those who do not know God" and [2] "those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus" will not likely be regarded as righteous by Jesus and his powerful angelic forces at Armageddon, so what did Jehovah do in Sodom and Gomorrah? What do you expect Jehovah to do with respect to the 6.9 billion people that either don't know God or don't obey the good news?
Now it's possible that you might not like the answers to these questions and you may disagree with Jehovah's judgment in the matter, but, regardless, I think the answers to both of these questions are quite clear. Face it, Jesus stated a very long time ago that Christians would not be able to reach everyone with the good news: "You will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives," Jesus said at Matthew 10:23.
What makes you any better than me ? Or any OTHER person on this board ? Only 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved alive to share a fantasy paradise ?
I hope to be one of those who have blessed by Jehovah, someone that inherits the earthly realm of God's kingdom, which has been prepared for me, and for folks like me, "from the founding of the world." (Matthew 25:34)
I think that's pretty delusional thinking.
Ok, but it's really not delusional thinking on my part; I am being led by spirit and my belief in salvation is based on faith: My own.
@djeggnog wrote:
As to Jehovah's Witnesses being a printing company, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I don't have anything at all to do with a printing company.
@OnTheWayOut:
You are called a "publisher." You distribute or "place" printed literature for them.
I am not just called a publisher; I am a publisher, a publisher of the good news about Jesus Christ. (Acts 17:3) But you are here taking my remarks out of context and you're also being silly. The fact that I might distribute tracts, brochures, booklets, magazines or books published by the WTS doesn't make me a publisher, any more so than my being able to boil a couple of hot dogs or use a microwave oven to warm up some frozen White Castle® hamburgers qualifies me to claim to be a head chef. The statement that @flipper made to which I was responding was that "Jehovah's Witnesses ... [is] a magazine printing company [that takes] advantage of people's false hopes...."
@The Finger:
When did Russell make this adjustment to believing the invisible presence was in 1914? and could you show me a quote from the Watchtower of the time period that shows this adjustment. Was it before 1914 or after? I understand from your previous posts you have an extensive library of older publications.
I do have an extensive library of the older WT publications, but I have no interest in responding to this question since I do not want to be involved in your exhumation of Russell's dead body as if what Russell believed or taught has any affect on your salvation. Believe me, if you were asking me about statements made by one of the 40 Bible writers, I would gladly help you, but I don't care what Russell may have believed at any particular time before his death because whatever errors he may have made during his lifetime -- and he made many errors, proving that he was as human as you and I are -- he was acquitted for his sins when he died. (Romans 6:7)
@djeggnog wrote:
Tell me that you do not know that we are living in the last days, and at the same time that you do not think it to be your obligation to let folks know that the meaning of the things that they have seen taking place since 1914 signify that the end of this system of things is near. There are people that you even know, people that live in your own community, that know not a thing about the storm that is coming, the great tempest is being roused up.
@The Finger wrote:
I did. When I was about 10, I done pioneer days, sometimes spending Saturday afternoon alone doing NH or calling on those whom I'd left the magazines with previously. I spent summer holidays in service sometimes doing 10 hour days. I arranged my school schedule so as to join my pioneer brother in the field service in the afternoon. I brought teachers to the hall and witnessed to my classmates. Later I was able to bring workmates to the hall. I dropped out of High School at 16 to devote my time to the preaching work, a life saving work rather than pursue what I really loved to do. I don't subscribe to the view that since 1914 we have seen a composite sign of Christ's invisible presence hence I no longer preach it.
But you are not doing this work now, and lack of faith is no excuse for your not doing the work that you were assigned by the Lord Jesus Christ to do.
In fact I feel ashamed that I preached, by offering the Awake, that the "generation" as we defined it at the time would not pass away as it was part of God's promise. God's name was associated with this error.
Well, what we read at Matthew 24:34 are Jesus' words, and we also have Jesus' words at Mark 8:38: "For whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he arrives in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
@djeggnog wrote:
So, seriously, @The Finger, do you think it to be righteous on your part to be dragging [the name of] this man, Russell, [through the gutter, a man] that has been dead for almost 95 years now, who despite all of his flaws and imperfections, was a believer in God's word, a man that did his best to follow the direction that the holy spirit led him and others, as he endeavored to listen to ... what the spirit was saying, at a time when God's organization was few in number, even getting a few things wrong along the way?
@The Finger:
I find history an interesting subject maybe you do too. The bible history shows the many flaws of those recorded in it. I don't consider discussion of the bible characters, whether it be David or Peter or Moses as dragging anything. I also don't consider quoting the WT publications and questioning beliefs as unrighteous. Maybe you do?
I think your zeal for Bible history to be misguided.
Well I can't answer the question on the Holy Spirit because I'm sure you'd say I don't have any so I'll let you answer it.
Of course, you cannot answer my question. Neither could @flipper. The fact that "you guys" use expressions that you do not understand and define them as you please makes both of you blind guides, and as such anyone that should take their queues from either of "you guys" will both undoubtedly "fall into a pit." (Matthew 15:14)
@flipper:
You didn't show me the courtesy of answering my questions to you . I answered the ones you asked me ! Now show some fruitages of that holy spirit you're eagerly talking about !
Yes, you did answer my question. But as for my timing in responding to your message, that's not something over which you have any control. I will typically respond to anyone's message, but I will not respond to the messages of folks that only want to argue and do not wish to discuss anything. In this post, you will notice that I do respond to your previous post. Perhaps this would be a good time for you to consider learning a bit of patience, granted, patience is not a fruitage of the spirit, but those having it along with faith will inherit the promises of God. (Hebrews 6:12)
@djeggnog