Great post as usual, Terry. You brought up the fact that Jesus was dead for three days, and for some odd reason, the concept of "1000 years is a day to Jehovah" struck. The scripture escapes me...sorry. At the risk of sounding like I wear a pocket protector, that exchange rate means three days take a relative 0.71 seconds to god. So really it would be like one of us losing a firstborn for less than 3/4 second. Oh, the horrors! I believe the heart stops when we sneeze, so all human parents experience the same loss hundreds or thousands of times every year.
For Terry - So That it Will "Make Sense"
by Perry 235 Replies latest watchtower bible
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myelaine
dear Terry...
"1.God CHOOSES to view humans (beginning with Adam and Eve) as only worthy of death. He calls the reason for this "sin." Doesn't matter what God calls it----it is GOD HIMSELF CHOOSING to allow humans to die.
3.Because of "sin" man is worthless, wretched, lost, in the clutches of Satan and utterly deserving of death----BUT! God is said to "LOVE" these undeserving wretches and want to save them. Huh? What is God saving them from other than God's OWN DETERMINATION TO LET THEM DIE?
Why is God saving mankind from his own determination to let them die and why is this so-called plan in effect at the time of Jesus forward rather than at the moment BEFORE any baby-making would start??"
Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world...He tasted death before A&E...they chose (because of the deception of the serpent) to be like God knowing good and evil. Also maybe there was no human baby-making (not setting a precedent here...matthew 22:24-30) before there was aging and therefore death.
love michelle
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Perry
Now, back to Perry's question. (Would you die to save your daughter's life?)
Notice in the procedding how this quesion is roundly ignored .....bad etiquette Terry
Perry, try to follow with me on this.
God is the parent. The offspring is Jesus.
Wrong. Jesus is both fully God and fully man. The Son personality of the Godhead was present in Spirit Form as well as the fleshly descendent of King David in the same body. If you are going to critique, critique the biblical story, not the Wt's.
God doesn't die to save Jesus.
Jesus dies to save his human brothers and sisters.
So, the analogy behind your question is what the British call "wonky."
No it is not, becasue of the reasons stated above....Jesus was God. Remember God is omnipresent, that is part of the widely accepted definition of God. So, the incarnation of himself into Jesus should be a snap compared to omnipresence.
That aside, you are missing a very important and fundamental part of the Salvation story.
Humans die because of God in the first place.
God witheld continued life from humans which was a power He possessed.
Wrong. God is the Source of all life. We are part of the universe subject to the 2nd law of thermo dynamics....decay. When Adam and Eve CHOSE to separate themselves from the Source of Life, they began to die. God did not cause this. Sin caused this. God is holy and has no connection to sin. I have explained all this to you before, remember?
There were millions of dead humans in the grave by the time Jesus was sent to die.
And God was not obligated to save any of these people because they were all sinners subject to God's judicial ruling that the wages of sin is death. Out of his mercy, he saved many under the judicial circumvention of the death penalty through animal sacrifice - dying in the place of the sinner.... symbolically picturing the cross in the "future".
So, there are 3 things you have to keep straight in your head, Perry.
1.Mankind dies because God doesn't keep them from dying. God views them as "deserving" death.
Wrong. Already refuted above unless you try and change the rules and definition of who and what God is in the typically accepted Christian view. That is a strawman plain and simple. You already know the definition of God yet persist in trying to change it in order to find something illogical about it. Bad form Terry....very bad form.
2.God has many, many (infinite!) options for "saving" mankind from permanent death. The ONLY option he selected involved DEATH. The death of Jesus.
So what? Doesn't the Creator have the right to do as he wishes with his enemies? There is no obligation of God to save his enemies....justice demands the opposite does it not?
3.Jesus died and came back to life. The sacrifice was TEMPORARY. Who lost what? God "lost" his only son? Yeah, for 3 days only! Jesus lost his life? Yeah, for 3 days only! When humans die they don't come back in 3 days. There is no eye for an eye balance at play.
Not so. The biblical definition of death is the separation of the spirit/soul from the body. This God experienced. The wages of sin is death. Perfectly balanced legally. This is utterly indisputable. Futhermore, since God is timeless, doubtless existing on all planes and timelines possible; at least on one of those He is possibly dying and suffering agony on that cross right "now"; even from the "founding of the world." That is certainly plausible given the nature of God.
Now, Perry, in view of the above list I return to the real problem of God's PLAN of salvation.
1.God CHOOSES to view humans (beginning with Adam and Eve) as only worthy of death. He calls the reason for this "sin." Doesn't matter what God calls it----it is GOD HIMSELF CHOOSING to allow humans to die.
The fundamental problem with your thinking and childlike logic, is that you think you are God and cannot die. Without God, death (decay) is inevitable. The fact is that people are not God (self existing) and in order to reverse the universal law of decay, they need God. God is under no judicial obligation to reverse this Law for his enemies. God is also a King ...don't forget.
2.At the same time that God is allowing generation after generation of humans to die (not to mention destroying all by 8 people in the flood) God is simultaneously working on a PLAN to save mankind??? This is illogical. I don't think this is anything at all but poor storytelling.
Terry, it is hard to imagine the dumbing down of observation needed to make this statement about a poor story. The idea of opposing one's enemies and then dying for your loved ones is etched in the human psyche more than any other theme. Whether it is Bravehart, Last of the Mohicans or countless other movies, Hollywood knows that this theme stirs the human spirit like NO OTHER. The story of God is the greatest story ever told. Hollywood can only copy.
3.Because of "sin" man is worthless, wretched, lost, in the clutches of Satan and utterly deserving of death----BUT! God is said to "LOVE" these undeserving wretches and want to save them. Huh? What is God saving them from other than God's OWN DETERMINATION TO LET THEM DIE?
4.Suddenly, God's PLAN kicks in when Jesus is born and "God so LOVED the world (?) he sent His only begotten son...." What has changed from the Garden of Eden at this point in time?? How is mankind now WORTHY of being loved and saved?? On what just basis can they now avail themselves of Jesus?
Again, all you need to do is read Genesis 3: 15 to see the beginnings of Salvation even before officially passing sentence. There is no "suddenly" to it.
5.The unfounded (no logic, no justice, no precedent) PLAN of God allows god's son to die (temporarily). This is called a "Ransom".
The only reason you don't find logic is because you change the story and definitions. Anyone can introduce falsehood and then find something illogical. Can you use the biblical definition of things and find something illogical, or unjust? I haven't been able to.
6.The same worthless wretches suddenly have the convenient ABILITY (despite their evil sinful nature) to accept this plan and exercise (out of nothing) FAITH!
Faith is a bid deal to God. Because of his largess it is the only way we can really relate to the enormity of God. Since the nature of God is infinite and our nature is finite, creatures will always need to have faith, if for no other reason that logistics.
You see how deep these problems are?
I don't think you have thought these things through Terry. You first task is to eradicat all the false premises. Then challenge everything from there. That's what people who want to learn do....deal in reality. Of course, if you just don't want to accept the common definitions of God, death, justice etc.....then you're just wasting your time. Personally, really wanted to get the elements of the story straight after leaving the WT. It took a long time. From my research, I have put together a website to illuminate the fundamental / traditional doctrines of the bible. - www.wordfamine.com
Why is God saving mankind from his own determination to let thetm die and why is this so-called plan in effect at the time of Jesus forward rather than at the moment BEFORE any baby-making would start??
Aside from the two false premises embedded in your question that I already refuted; I personally think God is adding members to his family through the interaction of good and evil allowing for a far more educated son or daughter. Again, judically he is not obligated to save ANYONE.
Now Terry. I have answered each and everyone of your questions. Fairness demands that you answer at least one of mine:
Would you give up your life for your daughter to save her?
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moshe
Again, all you need to do is read Genesis 3: 15 to see the beginnings of Salvation
All very good arguments, Perry, except that the Genesis story is just allegory. If believing a story makes it come true, then maybe the Blue Fairy can turn Pinnochio into a real live boy, too.
Well, I wish you were a bit more jealous Moshe. It was one of the things that prompted me to look to Jesus to save me from my misery. He delivered as promised in due time.
I have been saved as a Southern Baptist, regular Baptist, Pentacostal and a couple camp meetings I went forward on. None of them took- when I looked closely at Jesus, I couldn't separate out Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke , John, Peter, etc, etc, from Jesus. If Jesus had something important to say, why did he leave it to others to speak the words after he was dead? You see, I believe that Jesus is dead and is never coming back and Paul who is long dead can't sway me.
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startingover
Perry,
Please tell me, where is hell? A literal place has to have a location, right?
I have a hard time comprehending how being dead for 3/4 of a second in god years constitutes any legal requirement of a life for a life. Surely you jest. And tying the trinity into it, that makes it impossible for me to understand how someone can buy into what you are saying you believe. Of course, Jesus (god?) didn't search me out and tell me all about it so how could I possibly understand. Aren't people committed for thinking like that?
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startingover
No info on the hell thing I guess. Bummer, I really wanted to know.
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Terry
I tried to answer it this way, Terry -
While we are waiting, I will answer for myself: If it would really save her, and there were no other way, then yes - of course.
However, if I were GOD - then I would not have to.
I got told to go away. Guess I over-simplified my answer. Well, Perry's analogies are seldom custom-fit. Mostly, off-the-rack and very roomy. Out of all the Plans at his Supreme disposal, God Almighty ignored anything short of DEATH. Who says the punishment for eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil HAD TO BE death? It is only automatic because GOD ignored any lesser correction, teaching, rebuke or punishment. God didn't love Adam and Eve enough to safeguard their lives with a backup plan or a failsafe. The reason is obvious to me. The bible isn't written by ONE author with a plot in mind! It is an accumulation of layers of story+history reacting to myth as though it were Truth and Destiny. When question started to arise (the birth of Logic in Greece certainly dealt the Bible a blow) a retro-fit became an emergency measure. How do you keep the early Hebrew mythos alive as FACT when the story doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny and the actions of this Old Testament Deity don't match later claims for His being a God of Love and Mercy?? The emerging church INVENTED (with the help of Augustine and Aquinas) Grace, Original sin, Salvation and such by applying thin veneer of Neo-Platonic and Aristotelian "cause and effect" to the story. The church turned scripture into a blueprint called DOCTRINE and made people abide by it with their Authority behind the teaching.
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Terry
Now Terry. I have answered each and everyone of your questions. Fairness demands that you answer at least one of mine:
Would you give up your life for your daughter to save her?
Here are several true answers, Perry.
1.I would not give up my life for my daughter IF THERE WERE ANY OTHER WAY to save her. God had the choice of EVERY OTHER WAY!
No sane person gives up what cannot be restored without exhausting EVERY OTHER option. God does not have a non-restorable life. Perhaps this is why death is so cheap to Him.
2.I would never allow my own daughter (or son) to die in order to save others! Why? She is more valuable to me than any others.
3.Funny how all of God's crafty scenarios are bloody.
Now, Perry---you never answered my question.
Is it just coincidence that the Greatest mind in the Universe (God's) came up with exactly the same plan (child-sacrifice) as the most primitive tribes of man? Killing children to appease is not the most noble or intelligent plan, alas!
You have not commented on the fact Jesus died for only 3 days. He got his life back. Doesn't matter if he is God's son or God himself as a modality of trinitarian form----3 days is just 3 days!!
What is the sacrifice in 3 days?
Who ran the universe for 3 days? The 2/3 majority of the Trinity? Or did ALL of God die for 3 days?
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designs
You just don't understand Terry, you're not Born Again, only then will the mysteries be revealed to an infidel
...........ok, I must now take my seat in the place worse than Hell, DD is holding the door open
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Terry
The whole "Born Again" scenario is like cheating on a test. Instead of peeking at your neighbor's answers you get the Spirit slipping you the goods!
Like those info-mercials for bodybuilding gizmos you strap on that flex your muscles for you until you have 6 pack abs! No work required! Just send off your money and the miracle belt comes in the mail. You can lose weight and look fit while watching TV and munching cheetohs!
Seriously, Jesus was a super-hero. He wasn't a fellow like any of us. He walked on water! He loved his enemies! He turned the other cheek and didn't fight back!! He was the Jewish answer to the Greek Demi-God. Sort of like how Chanukkah is an answer to Christmas.
If you magically turn into a super-hero like Jesus (Born Again experience!) you don't have to prove your claims or resort to facts, study, history, science or even reasonable discourse!!
You turn into a very important character who gets secret messages straight from God without using up any minutes on your cellphone.
Labor free! No money down! Satisfaction guaranteed!