For Terry - So That it Will "Make Sense"

by Perry 235 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Perry
    Perry

    "It is hypocritical to call God's judicial penalties murder while at the same time remain silent about our own societal death penalities."

    No it is not hypocritical. People who commit atrocious acts in our society are punished. Even leaders and judges vwho commit atrocious acts can be punished. But when god commits atrocious acts, it's fine because he says so and cannot be questioned. That is a tyrant.

    zues,

    Just because YOU call a judgment of God atrocioous doesn't make it atrocious. You are placing yourself above God. A criminal about to be executed may think the judge that ordered his death is atroicious. Just because he entertained that thought doesn't make the judge atrocious.

    "If you are going to use the word "God", then you must use the definitions that are common with that word.... like JUDGE."

    I do not have to use any definition you think applies to god.

    Sure you do, unless you want to be known as someone who is illogical.

    I am going by what is written in the bible and if someone can justify even the laws he gave to Israel does not give a crap about whether something is inhumane or not, only whether god says something is right or not.

    Many western culture laws are based on the principles in the bible silly. We don't justify the bible's laws, they justify ours.

    "Also, You'll be happy to note that there is no rape condoned in the bible .... period"

    Keep telling yourself that. What would you call a man forcing himself on a woman.

    There is no rape condoned period. No matter how much YOU want to superimpose modern culture on the subject, it doesn't exist. There is no way you could have read the link I posted. Read the link then come back with your informed response.

    Plus you said nothing of slavery.

    You are not even reading my posts. Read the link I posted.

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    A little more incite into how slavery was perceived in biblical times

    Slavery in the Bible

    Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.

    Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word "servant", "bondservant", or "manservant" instead of "slave" to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn't mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.

    The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

    The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.

    If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

    Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?

    The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!

    What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

    You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

    In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    A little more incite into how Rape was perceived in biblical times

    Rape In The Bible

    Rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Yet few people know that the Bible often condones and even approves of rape. How anyone can get their moral guidance from a book that allows rape escapes me. Perhaps they have been lied to about the Bible and carefully detoured around all the nasty stuff in the Bible.

    So grab your Bibles and follow along as I show you all the nasty rapes that your priests and preachers don't want to tell you about. Note that in many places in the Bible there are references to "taking a wife". Don't be fooled into thinking that these were voluntary marriages. This first quote clearly shows that murder and force were used to "take" these wives.

    1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

    Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

    2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

    They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

    Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

    Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

    3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

    4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

    What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

    5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

    If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

    It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".

    6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

    Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

    Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

    This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

    7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

    "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

    Once again God approves of forcible rape.

    8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

    They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

    9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

    Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

  • Perry
    Perry

    tto,

    First off you'll need to quote a King James Bible if you want to claim something that God said. Big difference in versions and supporting manuscripts. . Secondly, the misconceptions and flat out falsehoods that are all over the internet on these subjects are addressed here:

    http://www.christian-thinktank.com/midian.html

    http://www.christian-thinktank.com/given2rape.html

    http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html

  • ZeusRocks
    ZeusRocks

    Just because YOU call a judgment of God atrocioous doesn't make it atrocious.

    Wanna bet. I am not only using my own moral compass to determine, but our society even contains laws that would punish a person doing the things god did in the bible.

    You are placing yourself above God.

    You bet I am. My own sense of morality is far superior to his.

    Sure you do, unless you want to be known as someone who is illogical.

    Every argument I've seen you put forth is nothing but illogical and completely hypocritical. You have to go against what you would consider immoral in order to justify what god has done in the bible. Would you stone your child to death for talking back to you or being disrespectful? At one point god thought it was okay to do just that. Would you like to own another human being as your property? God thought it was okay.

    Many western culture laws are based on the principles in the bible silly.

    Some are, most of them aren't. Our laws are far more superior to what is contained in the bible. Besides, nations had laws way before the bible came along and some of them were superior to the bible. Women in ancient Egypt were treated a lot better than how the Israelite women were.

    We don't justify the bible's laws, they justify ours.

    That's all you've been doing (justifying the bible's laws), because the laws and punishments in the bible are considered barbaric and inhumane by todays standards, so they have to be justified or else you would have to admit you worship a tyrant.

    There is no rape condoned period. No matter how much YOU want to superimpose modern culture on the subject, it doesn't exist. There is no way you could have read the link I posted. Read the link then come back with your informed response.

    I read the links and they were nothing but weak justifications in order rationalize the irrational behaviour of god in the bible. The arguments are no more valid than what the WTS puts out there.

    Like AK-Jeff said, there's no point in arguing with a delusion.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear ZeusRocks...

    you said: " You bet I am. My own sense of morality is far superior to his."

    ...and yet the life and death of your servant Jesus Christ in your stead means nothing to you?

    love michelle

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    First off you'll need to quote a King James Bible if you want to claim something that God said.

    Now that is both funny and ridicules, who do think your playing with ?

  • ZeusRocks
    ZeusRocks

    ...and yet the life and death of your servant Jesus Christ in your stead means nothing to you?

    There is no evidence that Jesus as portrayed in the bible ever existed. So no, it means nothing to me. I haven't committed any crime that is deserving of death and if I did, it would be immoral for a judge to allow someone take my place and not punish me for my crimes even if someone volunteered.

    Before anyone says that God says I am sinful and deserves death, they would have to establish first that this god even exists. And in the history of humankind, not one person has ever been able to prove beyond a doubt that any god of any culture in recorded history has ever existed. Belief in the god of the bible is based on nothing but hearsay, indoctrination and personal feelings that are based on the indoctrination.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Simple. If bad God2 could prevent Supreme God1 from revealing himself to his children, then God1 isn't Supreme. And, since that is an impossibility, there is nothing to worry about.

    Perry, im not talking about preventing anyone. Im talking about the case where there IS no God1, but only a God2 with a bad attitude.

    You cant really proove one over the other, right?

    So basically you are going to have to proceed based on assumption from there, or try to find evidence one way or another in Gods actions, ie. make a judgement on his character. But unless the evidence is bulletproof (and notice this is somewhat self-defeating since your God1 seems per definition to resist any judgement, good or bad), you have to allow for the chance the real "god" of the universe is a God2 and NOT a God1.

    And if you proceed by assumption -- your on shaky ground and cant really tell me i am wrong when your assumption has no evidence to it?

    This is the problem about Gods. They dont really make meaningfull predictions one can test at all. Thats why i prefer science.

  • Perry
    Perry
    Perry, im not talking about preventing anyone. Im talking about the case where there IS no God1, but only a God2 with a bad attitude.

    And this is the only statment that can be made when questioning a Supreme authority. Since the authority cannot be questioned because it makes the Supreme Diety less than Supreme, All a skeptic can essentially do to help his plight is to suggest or proclaim the impossible: Knowing that God doesn't exist; just as you have done.

    You cant really proove one over the other, right?

    Unlike our JW experience, a Christian knows that Jesus is alive, and thus knows that God not only exists but dynamically shares his life. So, yes through revelation, believers have proof. Proof is promised to believers through the blood of Chirst contained in the New Covenant, of which they are members.

    So basically you are going to have to proceed based on assumption from there, or try to find evidence one way or anot her in Gods actions, ie. make a judgement on his character.

    Revelation does not require judgment.

    But unless the evidence is bulletproof (and notice this is somewhat self-defeating since your God1 seems per definition to resist any judgement, good or bad), you have to allow for the chance the real "god" of the universe is a God2 and NOT a God1.

    A Supreme Authority is by definition UNIQUE and cannot be judged. To catagorically preserve your option of judging, you must by necessity digest the unknowable statement : "there is no God".

    You can't get out of this, no matter how hard you try, unless of course logic isn't necessary for you.

    And if you proceed by assumption -- your on shaky ground and cant really tell me i am wrong when your assumption has no evidence to it?

    I can state to you that God has revealed himself to me and has provided proof of his Godship and my sonship.

    This is the problem about Gods. They dont really make meaningfull predictions one can test at all. Thats why i prefer science

    Like the fugazi climate-gate science? The bible contains by some counts 2500 predictions with about 2000 already fulfilled. The bible claims that the acid test for truth is 100% accuracy. I think 100% is a good number.

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