"Jesus did not die on the cross" (Gunnar Samuelsson)

by Titus 101 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Mary

  Interesting quotes on the cross: article from on cruxifiction:

  "During this early period, a wooden beam, known as a furca or patibulum was placed on the slave's neck and bound to his arms. The slave was then required to march through the neighborhood proclaiming his offense. This march was intended as an expiation and humiliation. Later, the slave was also stripped and scourged, increasing both the punishment and the humiliation. Still later, instead of walking with his arms tied to the wooden beam, the slave was tied to a vertical stake................A soldier at the head of the procession carried the titulus, an inscription written on wood, which stated the defendant's name and the crime for which he had been condemned. Later, this titulus was fastened to the victim's cross. When the procession arrived at the execution site, a vertical stake was fixed into the ground. Sometimes the victim was attached to the cross only with ropes. In such a case, the patibulum or crossbeam, to which the victim's arms were already bound, was simply affixed to the vertical beam; the victim's feet were then bound to the stake with a few turns of the rope.......If the victim was attached by nails, he was laid on the ground, with his shoulders on the crossbeam. His arms were held out and nailed to the two ends of the crossbeam, which was then raised and fixed on top of the vertical beam." Biblical Archaeology Review, January-February 1985

  "The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails" (Irenaeus c. 130-202), Adversus Haereses II, xxiv, 4

  Seneca the Younger (c. 3 BC - 65 AD) was a Ancient Rome Stoicism philosopher statesman; he was tutor and advisor to Nero and lived at the same time as Jesus. In describing this form of torture, he said: "I see crosses there, not just of one kind but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some Impalement their private parts; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet."
• 

  Leolaia

  However, what about Simon of Cyrene? He helped Jesus to bear - WHAT? CRUX or PATIBULUM?

  The NT was written in Greek, not Latin; it says that Simon as well as Jesus (in separate accounts) carried the stauros (patibulum is a Latin word, Greek didn't have a separate word for the crossbeam). We don't know for sure what the author had in mind, but it was most likely the patibulum because multiple writers described the patibulum being carried by the condemned to the crux.

  And 50 lbs is how much kilograms? OK, maybe he would have need help.

  You should also bear in mind that Jesus' shoulders were whipped raw during the scourging. There have been reconstructions of crucifixion that show that the patibulum alone would have been very heavy and the complete cross (patibulum and stipes) would have been much too heavy.

  BTW, nowhere in the NT does it say that Simon took over carrying the cross from Jesus. This is a post facto harmonization of two separate accounts: the synoptics which alone have Jesus carrying the cross and John which has Jesus and no one else carrying the cross.

  During this early period, a wooden beam, known as a furca or patibulum was placed on the slave's neck and bound to his arms. The slave was then required to march through the neighborhood proclaiming his offense. This march was intended as an expiation and humiliation. Later, the slave was also stripped and scourged, increasing both the punishment and the humiliation.

  This is the pre-Republican predecessor of the later patibulum-bearing practice. But one should take care to note that the furca and the patibulum were likely different kinds of objects. The furca was the Y-shaped fork used to pull a wagon, and this is what the slave would carry while being whipped. The patibulum however was a different object, probably originally a bar used to prop doors open. Slaveowners would grab this bar and use it to punish disobedient slaves in a rather similar manner to furca-bearing. The latter was described by Plutarch and Livy, whereas the description given by Dionysius of Halicarnassus is suggestive of patibulum-bearing.
• 

  TTWSYF

  Can I repost my earlier reply from another thread?

  According to the WTS - Stauros means an upright stake, or pale in Classical Greek.

  The problem with this is simply that Classical Greek hadn't been spoken for centuries before Jesus Christ was born unto Mary.

  In Koine Greek [the new testament is written in Koine Greek which is Hellenistic] stauros means an upright stake with a cross beam above it, or two intersecting beams of equal length, or a vertical, pointed stake.

  If Christ was killed on just an upright stake the writers of the new testament would probably have used the word Skolops.

  Further evidence against the torture stake idea can be found in John 20;25 when Jesus is discribed as having prints of the nails in his hands. There is no evidence at all that Christ was killed on a stake, but plenty of art depicting Jesus on a cross. Additional archaeological evidence to support the crucifixion has been unearthed in the city of Herculaneum where a whitish stuccoed panel shows the imprint of a large cross, probably metallic, that had been removed...Before it are the remains of a small wooden alter charred by the lava from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79A.D. It seems almost impossible that the details of his death could have been lost so soon after his death.

  respectfully,

  dc
• 

  Leolaia

  In Koine Greek [the new testament is written in Koine Greek which is Hellenistic] stauros means an upright stake with a cross beam above it, or two intersecting beams of equal length, or a vertical, pointed stake.

  As mentioned above, the physical form of the execution apparatus is not part of the word's meaning (other than a wooden object standing upright). It is more accurate to describe the word's history in these terms: first in early classical Greek (i.e. prior to c. 450 BC), stauros referred to a standing wooden timber or stake, as used in buildings, fences, and palisades. Then in later classical Greek and in koine Greek, a technical sense developed: stauros now referred to a particular kind of execution involving suspension on a wooden apparatus, as well as the device used in this kind of execution. This sense should be distinguished from the first. If the word refers to an execution apparatus, the fact that stauros originally meant "stake" does not mean that the execution apparatus must be a simple "stake". The form could be whatever the executioner wanted it to be, and in the case of Roman crucifixion, a crossbeam was very often used.

  If Christ was killed on just an upright stake the writers of the new testament would probably have used the word Skolops.

  Skolops is the word that evokes the image of the vertical pointed stake (as it also means "thorn"), but stauros could refer to the crux simplex as well; this is probably the case in Greek references to Persian crucifixion which probably did not involve crossbeams (the patibulum was a Roman invention). Also it should not be forgotten that the verbal form of skolops was interchangeable with the verbal form of stauros (so, for instance, Lucian used the verbal form of skolops to refer to crucifixion on a two-beamed cross).

  Further evidence against the torture stake idea can be found in John 20;25 when Jesus is discribed as having prints of the nails in his hands.

  This would contradict with Watchtower depictions of crucifixion on a crux simplex, but there is no reason why both hands need to be pierced by a single nail. We simply don't know how the Romans crucified people in the absence of patibula, so the value of this reference is somewhat ambiguous.

  There is no evidence at all that Christ was killed on a stake, but plenty of art depicting Jesus on a cross. Additional archaeological evidence to support the crucifixion has been unearthed in the city of Herculaneum where a whitish stuccoed panel shows the imprint of a large cross, probably metallic, that had been removed...Before it are the remains of a small wooden alter charred by the lava from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79A.D.

  This is debatable. This imprint is believed by some to have been left by a cabinet or shelf. Nor is there independent evidence that the residents of the apartment were Christian.
• 

  jwfacts

  The article is a bit more realistic than the sensationalised heading, as it says " Jesus may not have died nailed to the cross"

  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7849852/Jesus-did-not-die-on-cross-says-scholar.html

  The comment "He claims the Bible has been misinterpreted as there are no explicit references the use of nails" does not seem accurate as Thomas wanted to see the scars from the nails in Jesus' hands.

  The work does not only question the cross but the entire story, such as him not dying either. "Any evidence that Jesus was left to die after being nailed to a cross is strikingly sparse - both in the ancient pre-Christian and extra-Biblical literature as well as The Bible."
• 

  Leolaia

  The article is a bit more realistic than the sensationalised heading, as it says "Jesus may not have died nailed to the cross"

  That's much better. I think it is more probable than not that the gospel narratives construe Jesus as nailed to a cross (i.e. a stauros with a crossbeam), but even I would say that it is still possible that he may not have died in such fashion.

  The comment "He claims the Bible has been misinterpreted as there are no explicit references the use of nails" does not seem accurate as Thomas wanted to see the scars from the nails in Jesus' hands.

  I think the writer of the article got this wrong; I doubt Samuelsson expressed himself quite the same way, especially since the quote has a generic use of "nails" (i.e. not an issue of a plurality of nails but whether nails at all were used).
• 

  cyberjesus

  ;-) So much debate on how Jesus died and we dont have evidence he was executed at all. Maybe he died of a heart attack or drowned on the jordan river... who knows.

  Thank you G-sus!

  Good articles though :-)
• 

  PSacramento

  You should also bear in mind that Jesus' shoulders were whipped raw during the scourging. There have been reconstructions of crucifixion that show that the patibulum alone would have been very heavy and the complete cross (patibulum and stipes) would have been much too heavy.

  Indeed, just the smaller "crossbeam" would be a chore for most people Jesus's size, much less after being beaten and the loss of blood.

  The compelte cross would be WAY to heavy and as I showed earlier, the vertical stake(beam really since I doubt it was pointed and as such if it was a beam they would have used the greek workd for beam) itself would also have been to heavy.

  50 lbs is 22.5 kilos I think, IF it was a 6 x6 post, it may have been thicker but certainly not thinner.
• 

  teel

  My father likes to say that the cross symbol is a pagan phallic symbol and that's one of the reasons why it's wrong. And I didn't have a comeback for that until I found out by doing a little bit of research that an upright pole can be a phallic symbol too.

  Can be? What form of phalloses have you seen more: cross or pole?
• 

  TTWSYF

  More evidence of Jesus dying on the cross can be found from the church fathers.

  St. Irenaeus and St Justin Martyr {both considered as Christian leaders by WTS-Should you believe in the Trinity pg7}, both confirm that Jesus did not die on a torture stake.

  Irenaeus said 'The very form of the cross, too, has 5 extremities, 2 in length, 2 in breadth, and 1 in the middle, on which [last] the personrests who is fixed by the nails' Against Heresies 2:4:24

  Justin Martyr explains that Moses outstretched hands were actually a prefigurment of Christ on the cross and continues on cross construction 'For one beam is placed upright....and the other beam is fitted on to it' . Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 90, 91

  The evidence of a cross is there to see.

  respectfully,

  dc