"Jesus did not die on the cross" (Gunnar Samuelsson)

by Titus 101 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Mad Sweeney

  Here's a point I haven't seen mentioned (though I admittedly have only scanned the thread).

  Post hole diggers weren't exactly commonplace back in the first century. And despite the belief that we're talking about some sort of primitive society, these people weren't stupid. It seems to me that it would be incredibly practical to have your upright poles permanently established in the ground in order to avoid stability issues rather than dig a new hole and mount a new pole for every single criminal executed. They may have even been living trees or the trunks of trees that had been trimmed and cut at an appropriate height. What did Jesus and others executed in those days carry to the location then?

  I think the answer is obvious: the cross bar their arms would be nailed to.
• 

  PSacramento

  Roman legionaires were great diggers, BUT I do think that it made far more sense to have "reusable" posts liek you mention, for many reasons and one fo them being the CONSTANT intimidation that just the vertical post gives people that KNOW what they mean.
• 

  not a captive

  Sometimes it's hard to know what were the considerations for style of executions.

  The practical problem of hardware has long been a problem for early humanity.Building w/o nails was a practical, not aesthetic concern in early or frontier times. During colonial times I have read that homesteaders burned their old residence to ashes to retrieve the nails --Not that I'm saying the Romans were short of spikes--but I can see the practical benefits of tying criminals to the conveniently located fork in a pole or tree and not having to deal with reusing spikes--it messes up the wood after a while. I know when we have butchered a beef, deer or hog, it isn't as easy as all that to find a proper tree for the job. Golgotha, the place of the skull must have had some proper set up for killing.

  Trees were at a premium around Jerusalem I believe. Fruit bearing trees were taxed--again correct me if this is wrong. It makes sense from a municipal stand point to have timber dedicated to the disposal of criminals.

  All-in-all it is hard to project back in time to the variety of circumstances that prevailed to alter even established customs for the hanging up, the crucifying, the impaling of criminals or prisoners of war.

  Humans are cruelly inventive.
• 

  Tristram

  Why does it matter so much to JWs? That's the part I could never figure out about this debate.

  Amen, Keyser. Anything remotely associated with "Christendom" is anathema, whether it's true or not. I never understood the vehement oppostition to the idea that there was a cross either. I guess it was just more Judge wackiness.
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  Leolaia

  I wonder if Samuelsson does cover the lex Puteoli text in his survey; it was published in 1967 but outside of epigraphic circles it was not widely known or even mentioned in the literature on crucifixion until 2008. However it is the most detailed and descriptive text on ancient Roman crucifixion, and it is roughly contemporaneous with Jesus (its date is somewhere between c. 27 BC to AD 14). Among other things, it states that the contractor sets up the crux and provides for materials (chains, cords, nails, pitch, wax, candles, etc.), while the patibulum is brought separately to the crux (probably by the slave accompanied by the floggers provided by the contractor).
• 

  PSacramento

  Leo,

  Well, that is a very interesting text.

  Any way to get our stubby fingers on it?

  I don't think he does cover it because it seems like he is focusing on NT passages, it doesn't seem he is using extra-canonical sources.

  Do you know if and when you will be able to read is dissertation?

  Do you think it will be used by the JW's?
• 

  jookbeard

  historical evidence stacks up in the fact that the Romans crucified people, if the WTS had always promoted a belief in the cross it would never have made any difference to the fact they are a high control dangerous religious cult and are wrong in countless failed prophecies and current teachings.
• 

  Leolaia

  Any way to get our stubby fingers on it?

  It was published in Novum Testamentum in 2008, in an article by John G. Cook. Here is a translation of the relevant passage:

  "Whoever will want to exact punishment on a male slave or a female slave at private expense, as he [the owner] who wants the [punishment] to be inflicted, he [the contractor] exacts the punishment in this manner: if he wants [him] to bring the patibulum to the crux, the contractor will have to provide wooden posts, chains, and cords for the floggers and the floggers themselves. And anyone who will want to exact punishment will have to give four sesterces for each of the workers who bring the patibulum and for the floggers and also for the executioner. Whenever a magistrate exacts punishment at public expense, so shall he decree; and whenever it will have been ordered to be ready to carry out the punishment, the contractor will have gratis to set up the cruces, and will have gratis to provide nails, pitch, wax, candles, and those things which are essential for such matters. Also if he will be commanded to drag [the cavader] out with a hook, he must drag the cavader itself out, his workers dressed in red, with a bell ringing, to a place where many cavaders will be".

  I don't think he does cover it because it seems like he is focusing on NT passages, it doesn't seem he is using extra-canonical sources.

  No, that's not the case, my understanding is that it is a lexicographical survey throughout the ancient literature of the principal terms denoting execution via suspension. This makes it a very important study.

  Do you know if and when you will be able to read is dissertation?

  I don't know. Hopefully I will obtain a copy.

  Do you think it will be used by the JW's?

  Of course!
• 

  PSacramento

  No, that's not the case, my understanding is that it is a lexicographical survey throughout the ancient literature of the principal terms denoting execution via suspension. This makes it a very important study.

  Well, I hope you do get a chance to read it becuase, and this may be unfair to Gunnar, it sounds like he is trying to make his dissertation more "style than substance", unless of course he has some new and excting info.

  If he were a JW I could understand this paper, but him not being one, well...I question his motives but it could be min ingrained bias.
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  Leolaia

  PSacramento....I don't think so. He is taking a fresh perspective and a study like this has never been done, and has really needed to be done for a long time. The only thing that comes close is a brief 2002 article by John Robison, but it had a very limited focus and did not examine matters at depth. It remains to be seen whether I find his analysis persuasive but a good deal of what he wrote posted on the ETC blog is close to my own views (as discussed in my first post of this thread). What I am eagerly looking forward to is reading his assessment of the texts that are informative about crucifixion practices. From the media reports it seems that he takes a rather pessimistic view of how they have generally been interpreted, but I will have to wait and see what his analysis of the texts is.