Hmmm...I have a question

by hmmmmmm 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  bohm

  Perry: Okay. Let me re-phrase. You wrote that being an atheist with respect to God is illogically, because one would have to know for certain no God exist. That would, in a sence, make a God out of oneself. Then i asked about the flying spaghetti monster, and you said (if i understand you right) that you dont believe there is one and that is logically sound since millions dont have a personal relationship with it.

  now what i want to ask is this: So if a group of people had a personal relationship with the FSM, that would mean it was (per your previous definition) not logically sound to be 'atheistic' with respect to the FSM?
• 

  The Finger

  Christ shed blood purchased us and we become baptised into his name and become his without being baptised into him we cannot gain salvation as we cannot make use of the sacrifice.
• 

  Perry

  So if a group of people had a personal relationship with the FSM, that would mean it was (per your previous definition) not logically sound to be 'atheistic' with respect to the FSM?

  Yes that's right. If hundreds of millions of people claimed to have intimate knowledge of the FSM that would lend tremendous credence to his existence. But it would not constitute proof if I didn't have that same intimate proof.

  Why do you ask?
• 

  Perry

  Christ shed blood purchased us and we become baptised into his name and become his without being baptised into him we cannot gain salvation as we cannot make use of the sacrifice.

  Finger,

  You haven't quoted many scriptures to support your position.

  Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
  Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

  
  Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
  Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

  Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

  These scriptures show that the following path is true for the forgiveness of Sins:

  Jesus (Mediator) > Covenant > Blood > Forgiveness

  This idea of baptism saving a person was started hundreds of years after Jesus and the apostles. It gave rise to the idea that to be a Christian was a geographic phenomonon (infant baptism in a "Christian Land") rather than a conscious acceptance of the terms of the New Covenant. This of course is what drove the merger of Church and State ....something Jesus indicated to keep separate "pay Ceasar's things to Caesar and God's things to God".
  
• 

  The Finger

  Matt.28:19..."baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy spirit."Romans 6:3 "Do you not know that all of us who were baptised into his Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? 8."If we have died with Christ we believe that we shall also live with him" Titus 3:5 "owing to no works in righteousness that we had preformed but according to his mercy he saved us through the bath that brought us to life.."1 Peter 3:21 "that which corresponds to this is also now saving you namely, baptism.."

  1 Cor. 10:2 "and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and sea." This large crowd no doubt included infants.

  On the blood issue most JWs believe that children can make the right choice on a matter of life and death. But they do not often believe that baptism is as important at such a young age.
• 

  Perry

  Finger,

  For the record, I don't have a problem with infant baptism per se.....just not for Salvation.

  ."Romans 6:3 "Do you not know that all of us who were baptised into his Christ Jesus were baptised into his death?

  How can a baby agree to die unto himself and allow Jesus to be the boss of his life? Why are there NO New Testament examples of infants getting baptized? REason: Babies couldn't understand what teh sacrifice of animals meant much less the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. Again, nothing wrong with it. Just meaningless for the child.

  "If we have died with Christ we believe that we shall also live with him"

  And Paul explained what that death was to:

  For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
  20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

  Finger, before I address these next texts, I must point out to you that I do not accept the Alexandrian-Type Mss as the word of God for a variety of reasons. The fact that they make up less than 1% of all ancient manuscripts is not the least of those. You can of course make up your own mind about the issue. Here is my take: http://wordfamine.com/ModernTranslations.html I also only use the KJV for doctrinal purposes.

  Having said that:

  Titus 3: 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

  And what is that washing? Was it baptism? No.

  Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

  Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them ° white in the blood of the Lamb.

  
  ONLY the BLOOD OF JESUS can make you clean.

  1 Peter 3: Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein ° few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ° (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

  Water baptism does not save a person, but there is a baptism which does. The moment a person believes in Christ he is baptized (immersed) or placed into Christ. “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal. 3:26-27). Being baptized or placed into Jesus Christ is not something that man can do but it is something that only God can do for the believing heart. The result of this baptism is that the believer has a brand new position. Having been placed into Jesus Christ he is now “in Christ” (a phrase that is found repeatedly in the New Testament Epistles). “If any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature” (2 Cor. 5:17). How did we get to be “in Christ”? God, in His grace, placed us into His dear Son the moment we believed on Him.

  In the days of Noah, eight people were saved. The rest of the world perished. They were saved because they were in a location which was absolutely safe and secure. They were in the ark. Everyone outside of the ark perished. Today Jesus Christ is our Ark of safety. There is no safer place to be than “in Christ”

  —“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). Those outside of Christ are in great danger. How did we get into Christ our Ark of safety? We were baptized into Jesus Christ the moment we were saved. God placed us into His Son, and in Him we are safe and secure forever. Water baptism is meant to be a picture of the real baptism (sometimes referred to as spiritual baptism or Spirit baptism) that took place the moment we were saved. Water baptism is meant to be a picture of this new position and new relationship we now have in Christ, having been totally identified with Him, with His Person and His work.
• 

  Heaven

  My apologies for the delay in response. I do not always have a lot of time to reply.

  THERE IS NO DESERVING CRITERIA

  I would agree with your statement IF there was no judgment after death. However, according to the Bible, a judgment is to be passed once each of us dies. If this is true, then your statement is false. For any decision to be made, there must be criteria. If you fall short of the evaluation criteria, you do not pass the judgment. If you do not pass, you are punished. If you do pass, you are rewarded. In any evaluation, a comparison is made against criteria. In regards to the Holy Bible, if you meet this then you are 'deserving' of eternal life. The first criteria, according to John 3:36, is belief in Christ. You must accept him as your Saviour, you must admit your sins, you must repent, you must turn away from your former life, and be 're-born' in baptism as a Christian. These are the criteria outlined in the Bible. Perhaps there are other criteria that have not been documented... who knows. Without doing these things, you are not 'deserving' of and will not be rewarded with eternal life.

  My basic premise from my initial post is that this is short sighted and very narrow minded. For there will always be people on the Earth who have never heard of Christ nor read the Holy Bible and to subject someone to a judgment when they are not educated is not only unfair, it's illogical, and, ultimately, evil. And as stated before, my experience in life so far is that non-Christians are just as spiritual and loving as Christians.

  So which is it? You do or you don't? You seem utterly confused.

  On the contrary. And I apologize if I seem unclear. I view the "Christian God" as one of many 'Gods' described in various documents. Other examples include the Jewish God and the Muslim God. They all have differences as well as similarities. I choose not to conjure God as it is really a pointless endeavour. To me, this would be confusing as I would not be able to end up with a definitive answer and would leave me ultimately frustrated.

  Your belief is anything but this. Or else you would logically concede that A Supreme Being (which is what most people think of when the word God is used) would have to be evil himself if he did not judge and punish those that inflict harm on others.

  Again, incorrect. The ultimate message in the Bible is love. I do not view punishment as loving. I do view it as a man-made response to keep people in line. For one thing, punishment after death negates the importance of Christ's death. The ransom has been paid. No further punishment is required. Also, once we die, we are free of sin, we have paid our debt, so what are we being punished for? I have seen where punishment actually encourages further evil, especially when an individual feels they have been unfairly punished. Evil begets evil. For God to punish us for an inherited legacy of sin, after we have endured this physical world, and after the sacrifice from Christ is very illogical, short sighted and narrow minded. Of course, my view of the Holy Bible is that it, along with the religions of the world, are man-made attempts at control and to explain the unexplainable.

  Atheism posits "no God" . A person would have to be all powerful himself and look everywhere in the universe to make this a true statement.

  And conversely, one would have to be all powerful himself and look everywhere in the universe to make the statement that atheism is impossible.
• 

  The Finger

  "In baptism the effect of this death is applied to the baptised (Rom 6. 11f; 1Cor 6:11)..." "Thus in 1Cor 12. 13 he presupposes that entrance into the flock of Christ, with its focus in baptism, also confers a share in this divine gift." Page 81.

  "The imagery of burial repeats what was said through the picture of circumcision, that the old conditions were eliminated. In both images something is discarded, a foreskin and a corpse, respectively. Both of them also have a positive aspect, even though this is less evident in the case of circumcision. Burial and death are followed by resurrection, and the image of circumcision presupposes that the rite was the sign of entrance into the people of God...So both images also underline that God is at work in baptism." Page97.

  "In the Gospel of John, the new birth from water is one of the preconditions for the entry into the kingdom of God, or in more Johannine terms, for obtaining "eternal life". Page 167.

  "Into the Name of the Lord Jesus" Baptism in the Early Church. Lars Hartman T&T Clark Edinburgh 1997.
• 

  Perry

  Heaven, so much of your post is simply NOT Accurate. Most has already been covered. Everyone is welcome to believe whatever they want of course.

  And conversely, one would have to be all powerful himself and look everywhere in the universe to make the statement that atheism is impossible.

  Not accurate. God himself introduces himself to the born-again believer. The believer operates from a position of fact. The atheist operates from a position of impossibility.
• 

  Perry

  Finger,

  I have already presented plenty of scriptures to support the doctrine of baptism as being symbolic rather than salvific. If you disagree....I understand that is your right.