Hmmm...I have a question

by hmmmmmm 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  TD

  Interesting question. (From a JW view of course.)

  It's connected to a fundamental dispute among Christians. Did Jesus die for you or did he die in place of you?

  Are your sins forgiven right now on the basis of your faith in the Ransom? (Jesus died for you)

  or

  Did Jesus basically step in front of the "Bullet" aimed at you, leaving nothing really changed insofar as your sinful state in the eyes of God? (Jesus died in place of you.)

  Charles Taze Russell held the former view while Nelson Barbour held the latter and they ended up splitting over this.

  It's funny to me that although Witnesses demonize Barbour and twist his view into a rejection of the Ransom itself, it is Barbour's view that they actually believe today and not Russell's.
• 

  Perry

  And if you've died and have paid off or were acquitted from your sin, a) what was Christ's sacrifice for, and b) why would there be any need to 'grow' to perfection in the resurrection (unless, bizarrely, you're resurrected imperfect/sinful and have to start over with a new 'debt')?

  The teaching that when you die you are "acquitted" from sin is a lie from the pits of Hell.

  Judgment is AFTER death:

  Heb. 9:27 ... it is appointed unto men once to die , but after this the judgment

  Death simply means separation of soul and body. That's why dead souls are crying out under the alter in Rev. 6 and why the boy who was resurrected by Elisha had his soul returned to him:

  1 Kings 17: And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

  Ez 18:4 (Supposed JW proof Scripture) The soul that is sinning, it itself wil die .... simply means that it will be separated from its body.

  This is perhaps the most ludicrous of all WT teachings because it makes the sacrifice of Jesus meaningless. Fred Franz put the word "acquitted" in the bible to anul the New Covenant and minimize the importance of the Sacrifice of Jesus.

  Rom.6: Knowing this , that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed , that henceforth we should not serve sin . For he that is dead is freed from sin . (The NWT here says acquitted) Best to stick with King James Version when distilling doctrine.

  Paul is talking about giving up the rights to ourselves when we invite Christ to be the Lord of our life..... be born again.

  The bible teaches that there is great reason to fear a death without Christ as your Mediator:

  Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

  February 15, 1991 issue of the
  Watchtower, pgs. 15-20 paragraph 11; makes this
  announcement:

  11 ... Christ does not act as Mediator of the new
  covenant toward them, [the great crowd]
  
• 

  Heaven

  Welcome to the board, hmmmmmm. Just wanted to say "Hi!", "Welcome", and "Good question! Keep on asking them."

  (side note: JWs said they could answer all my questions when I was a kid. They never have. They actually create MORE questions within me. You can see the vicious cycle from here.)

  The bible teaches that there is great reason to fear a death without Christ as your Mediator:

  And this is one of the reasons I have a problem with the Bible. Because this is basically saying if you're not Christian, you're not worthy of everlasting life. My experiences so far in life contradict this. I have met many worthy, principled, spiritual people who are NOT Christian. I guarantee you there are many, many people who have never even read the Bible or heard of Christ. If God is this short sighted, I want nothing to do with him.
• 

  Perry

  Because this is basically saying if you're not Christian, you're not worthy of everlasting life.

  Heaven, You are confusing the claims of cults with the claims of Christianity...which states just the opposite.

  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Rom. 3: 10
• 

  Heaven

  The bible teaches that there is great reason to fear a death without Christ as your Mediator:

  This was your statement. Why should I fear death if Christ is not my Mediator then?
• 

  Perry

  This was your statement.

  Really? (scratches head)

  Can you point out where I claimed that anyone was worthy of everlasting life?

  Why should I fear death if Christ is not my Mediator then?

  Because like I pointed out in the earlier post, biblically judgment is after death .... not before like the WT teaches.
• 

  Farkel

  If one is honest, to the WTS, the Bible doesn't mean what it says "the wages of sin is death." First, we need to agree that that verse means when you die you've paid all the wages of sin, e.g. the sin is forgiven, the "wage" has been paid. If you don't agree with that (which is exactly what is says), then the WTS argument below does not apply. That means the WTS does not agree that the Bible means exactly what it says.

  It means, "wages of sin are death", EXCEPT:

  If you were Adam and Eve, a resident of Sodom and Gomorrah (depending upon what week it is, though), Judas and numerous others in the Bible.

  You die at Armageddon.

  You were DFd or otherwise had left the Printing Corporation when you died.

  The WTS doesn't like you for whatever reason.

  What kind of a mood a Watchtower article writer is in today.

  You are me.

  Farkel
• 

  choosing life

  So, Perry, what are you saying happens to a person who does not have Christ as their mediator?

  Back on subject, the idea that death somehow erases sin is confusing, at best. Most translations say what Perry quoted, that one who has died is freed from sin.

  The New World Translation uses acquitted, as mentioned, and adds (his) before the word sin. Different meaning there. Does sin no longer have power over the person or are they just paying the price and all is even now?

  If Christ paid for our sins, then why would we have to pay again?
• 

  Chalam

  Welcome hmmmmmm !

  For example - wages of sin is death - so if you sin you die, and if you die you have paid for that sin completely, so you have no more sin

  Death does not pay for sin, it is just the consequence of it.

  Romans 3:21-26 (New Century Version)

  How God Makes People Right

  21 But God has a way to make people right with him without the law, and he has now shown us that way which the law and the prophets told us about. 22 God makes people right with himself through their faith in Jesus Christ. This is true for all who believe in Christ, because all people are the same: 23 Everyone has sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standard, 24 and all need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ. 25 God sent him to die in our place to take away our sins. We receive forgiveness through faith in the blood of Jesus' death. This showed that God always does what is right and fair, as in the past when he was patient and did not punish people for their sins. 26 And God gave Jesus to show today that he does what is right. God did this so he could judge rightly and so he could make right any person who has faith in Jesus. JWs do not have faith in the blood of Jesus, just watch them at the "memorial". They also deny the final wages of sin, the second death Revelation 20:10 Revelation 20:14 Revelation 21:8 Blessings, Stephen
• 

  Perry

  Does sin no longer have power over the person or are they just paying the price and all is even now?

  Choosing Life,

  Paul is talking about the effects of being born again. When a person enters into the New Covenant with Jesus....it is a blood covenant, unto the death of both parties. First the believer dies to himself. This must be done to grant God entrance into his body. The believer gives up his rights and basically tells God, "Do what you want with me. "

  When God ratifies this agreement the believer is given a new spirt ("he is a new creation") and inhabits the believer through the Person of the Holy Spirit.

  That new spirit CANNOT sin. The flesh which was previously used to having its own way, wars against that new spirit and in fact does sin. But the believer is in a contract with God and is Justified by Christ's blood. Little by little, because of that new spirit and because of the conflict that now resides insided the believer, he is able to PROVE what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God....over time. (His intellect is saved)

  Finally, the believer dies in the flesh and is given a new body in the resurrection.

  I know this is heavy.... but...

  First the Soul is saved, then the Spirit/Mind and lastly the body is saved.

  So, Perry, what are you saying happens to a person who does not have Christ as their mediator?

  Unless a person has Jesus as their Mediator, they will be resurrected after the Thousand Years. The Soul, Spirit, and Body is reunited to stand trial before God at the Great White Throne. Believers will not be judged here. They had their trial back on Calvary Hill and were declared guilty but received mercy due to their faith in the sacrificial value of Jesus and their acceptance of the New Covenant offered by Jesus for the "forgiveness of sins".

  After the trial, those without Christ as their Mediator are cast into the Lake of Fire. This means the second death.