NEW GENERATION DEFINED -- April 15, 2010 Watchtower

by Ultimate Reality 385 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • garyneal

    I brought this up with my wife the other night and boy did she get hot and defensive.

    First off, she said that the information cannot be true because a) it came from the INTERNET and b) the April 15th WT is not yet published.

    She railed against me for participating too much with APOSTATES and said that I should be minding my own business and attending to the affairs of my religion. In other words, stay out of her religion and quit trying to learn so much about them since I want nothing to do with them.

    Again she asked me how is my bringing this up to her 'upbuilding?'

    I just simply said that I wanted her to think and asked how she thought of the change. Her response is, "Why should it matter?"

    She said that I was trying to get her to LEAVE JEHOVAH and I said, "No, I never said that." She asked what I would do if I found out my church was teaching something that was not true and I said, "I'd leave if necessary. My relationship with God has nothing to do with what church I attend." Then I told her how I had actually been through this before when I left the Independent Fundamental Baptist church years ago because I felt like they were teaching beyond the Bible.

    She said, "If I was going to another church, you would not be doing what you are doing." I said, "Not true. If you started attending a Unification Church, I would be just as concerned. If you decided to be a Morman, I would be concerned, or a Christadelphian." "Never heard of the Christadelphians," she said. "And yet they agree with the witnesses on so many things," I continued.

    "What do you know about the Mormons?" she asked.

    1. They believe they are the only true religion.
    2. They don't believe in reading the Bible alone but along with the book of Mormons.
    3. They were founded by Joseph Smith.

    "Who's Joseph Smith?" she asked.

    "The mormon equivalent of Charles Taze Russell. The mormons believe him to be a prophet and think he did more for them than even Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith was told by an angel that all other religions apostatized and that his religion alone was the one true religion."

    "Charles Taze Russell never considered himself a prophet," she countered.

    "Charles Taze Russell considered himself THE ONLY faithful and discreet slave and you can read that in the old copies of Zion's Watch Tower. There was also a degree of 'creature worship' from the Bible Students directed to Russell."

    The conversation went on and one about WT new light. She said that she thinks Russell was indeed the first FDS, etc.. She so badly wants to believe that this religion is the truth and yet the evidence clearly says otherwise. It must be getting to her. But unfortunately she continues to shut her mind off because she does not want to have to admit that something could be wrong. As one document I read stated, her brain is fighting for its life.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    She is denying that it's even in the WT because it came from the Internet?

    I'm not surprised. Most of the rank and file aren't even the least bit up to date about their own religion and it's web presence, despite dozens of Service Meeting announcements and some Question Box stuff about it. It's because they don't actually listen and learn at meetings, they simply get indoctrinated.

  • yknot


    Time to give her a little push....

    'Buy out some time' in the next day or two and show her the 'apostate' site where she can view the Apr WT......

    Show her the 'login' and explain to her that this is where HER Elders get their instructions and letters from the WTS.

    Tell her for all the Internet bashing it does the WTS has no problem having many of their own.....then pop over to and ask if she knew the 'Slave' took credit cards? Ask about how she feels about over zealous JWs who actually go in debt donating?

    Oh yes she is so right the Internet is sooooo bad, unless it benefits the WTS directly!

    Than if you are feeling embolden, show her this thread!

  • wannabe

    Hi ALL!

    What we have with the Governing Body is a bunch of Men grasping at straws, trying like Hell to stay afloat! Sooner or later,though they're sinking to the bottom. Just a matter of time now! It has to be, at some point in time, the rank and file, will have their eyes opened, and begin to file out. What a crash that will be, when they are toppled from their lofty perches. Wannabe

  • Terry

    For what it is worth....

    Approaching a JW on micro-issues (details) is like stepping on a swimming pool full of Jello.

    Visualize a Pyramid.

    The details you are arguing are on the top point. But, the real underpinning is below.

    If you knocked off an itty bitty chip at the summit it wouldn't make any difference.

    The GENERATION policy/understanding/interpretation is just that: a microscopic detail.

    EVERYTHING rests on the bottom layer.

    The bottom layer is beneath the Governing Body and its interpretations.

    It all begins with Scripture itself. That is the foundation.

    The Mormons knew this when they invented a more modern version of what they would rely on, the Book of Mormon.

    The Catholic Church knew this when they asserted magisterium in place of Scripture as the their source of Authority.

    Martin Luther, poor devil, thought he knew it when he declared Sola Scripture (the bible alone). Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon, however!

    You need to take a look at the FOUNDATION of the faith as well.

    Take a look at how sound and secure Scripture is. Concentrate all your time and attention on that.

    It starts and ends there: the BIBLE itself.

    Misquoting Jesus

    The more you read about how we got this assemblage of little "books" over a long period of time the better you'll understand the weakness of relying on it.

    Jesus, Interrupted

    WITHOUT the existence of original autograph texts UNcorrupted over time there is no STANDARD of purity for the copies of that text.

    Think about that awhile.

    The most important set of documents (supposedly) in God's communication with mankind have gone MISSING!

    The Catholic Church which has an absolute fetish about relics, shrouds, fingers and bones, chalices and other Holy artefacts DIDN'T KEEP the original Bible texts!

    IF the scriptures are not with substantial error how do we verify it--to what do we compare our texts for verifcation? It is demonstrable how many accretions and interpolations have crept in. Even one such instance wrecks the "without error" claim.

    The GENERATION interpretation is done to death by reworking scriptures "word by word" and parsing the meaning. But--WE DON'T KNOW the actual words of Scripture--so how can it be honestly argued?

    All those thousands of texts in museums, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the fragments, manuscripts and such from which we derrive our translations don't come close to being uncorrupt autograph texts. There are no first generation copies either!

    Most of what we rely upon for the Christian scriptures is from the Dark Ages!

    I say all this (and repeat it Ad Nauseum in other posts on different topics) because this is THE foundational issue of all.

    Without INTERPRETATIONS of Scripture there is no basis for Watchtower claims----any of them.

    Why waste your time arguing the top layer when the real culprit is the bottom layer.

    Food for thought. That's all.

    Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.........

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    While you're factually correct, Terry, I wonder whether arguing on that basis ignores the fact that believers place great stock in faith. They consider it a grand and noble thing to believe in something without any real factual basis (such as God and The Bible). Do you think this tack would work on people who put faith over facts? Does anything really?

  • TheOldHippie

    wannabe - "Just a matter of time now!"

    Yeah, sure, as if I'd never heard that one before ......................

  • JustHuman14

    Definition upon definition, upon definition, upon definition of the new definition........

    Come on give us a break......




    garyneal my friend. Your wife she will NOT believe what you are telling her, despite the fact that YOU ARE TRUE. I know this from first hand. For her, you are just a thread, you are 'Devils' advocate and you are used by demons to turned her away from THE TRUTH...

  • Terry

    While you're factually correct, Terry, I wonder whether arguing on that basis ignores the fact that believers place great stock in faith. They consider it a grand and noble thing to believe in something without any real factual basis (such as God and The Bible). Do you think this tack would work on people who put faith over facts? Does anything really?

    You said a mouthful: FAITH OVER FACTS.

    Sounds loyal...even...noble.

    But, is it even intelligent to put trust and hope in anything that sounds too good to be true?

    Remember the recent Bernie Madoff scam that cheated people out of millions and millions of dollars? Prominent people TRUSTED what they were told and looked at all the other prominent people who TRUSTED what they were told. And now? The money has gone forever!

    TRUST and FAITH invite scammers to take advantage of you.

    Saying: "I have faith in......" is like wearing a sign on your forehead that says: "I'm a sucker; take advantage of me."

    Would inject into a conversation the proud phrase: "I'm easy to fool because I don't need proof of what you tell me." ?

    The rampant, viral conspiracy of ignorance concerning the authenticity of Bible texts is dumbfounding once you start investigating the scam.

    Just keep repeating this mantra until you "get it".....

    IF WE DON'T KNOW THE ACTUAL WORDS of the BIBLE we can't believe or argue anything with honesty.

    Faith without HONESTY is living a lie.

  • AllTimeJeff

    Terry, as a reader who gets just as much out of Lord of the Rings or a Mitch Albom book as the Bible, I can only say that to a point, we humans do tend to be inspired, and reading books is a way to do that.

    I personally value Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the 4 traditional Gospels for their pragmatic value as much as anything.

    They don't instruct me as to the nature of god, nor convince me of her existence at all. To me, they help me glimpse into the human condition, which is where my interests lie.

    The 2 recent points here I think are telling. We are

    1. Talking about the source material as if it were reliable, which an honest person cannot say is so.
    2. We are talking about the authority structure of any religion/group/cult to interpret these flawed documents. An authority that is based on documents of questionable (that is being charitable) history and the interpretation results in the control of billions of people.

    It is entirely mystic.

    The best value that can be assigned certain books of the bible are ones with a pragmatic slant on the insight of the human condition. Anything else is superstitous mumbo jumbo.

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