How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough 189 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jonathan dough

  ME: So is it the official Jewish position that Moses did not part the sea, call it red or reed. How about all of Moses' many miracles prior to the exodus? Was that all metaphor? The burning bush? The account of the flood? How about manna from heaven? God writing the ten commandments? The fall of Jericho? All of the OT miracles, please tell me, do they believe any of it at all? Even one? I just find that so hard to believe.

  YOU: Jonathan, why do you find it hard to believe? Do you think I am lying to you? Do you think I do not know what is going on in the modern Jewish community?

  ME: I'm not trying to be difficult, Robyn, and I don't think you are lying. Not at all. I just find it hard to believe that there isn't an official position on this that you can point me to. That there are absolutely no alleged OT miracles that are taken literally as a matter of Jewish doctrine. That's all. You make it sound like Jews are Quakers who all make up their own interpretations and there is no official position on this. I don't think I'm being unreasonable, but until I can see something more definitive, I have to think you are mistaken.

  http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-5.html#VI
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  Satanus

  Rob

  There are different groups in judaism, don't some of them take the ot stories literally?

  S
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  Robdar

  I'm not trying to be difficult, Robyn, and I don't think you are lying. Not at all. I just find it hard to believe that there isn't an official position on this that you can point me to. That there are absolutely no alleged OT miracles that are taken literally as a matter of Jewish doctrine. That's all. You make it sound like Jews are Quakers who all make up their own interpretations and there is no official position on this. I don't think I'm being unreasonable, but until I can see something more definitive, I have to think you are mistaken.

  Well, of course you think I'm mistaken. It rocks your world to think otherwise. I am not making fun of you because I was surprised by some of this information too.

  We don't offer Bible Study, so how can I prove it to you? As I said, Jews are free to believe what they want. Some of the orthodox, who make up a very small minority of Jews, probably literally believe some of the stories. Most Jews do not believe the stories to be literal.

  I like some of the stories and they have special significance to me, so I choose to believe the stories. But I do not have to do so. Being a good Jew is not incumbent upon me believing or disbelieving.

  If you really want to know, I suggest you start going to a few synagogues. I am sure you will not burst into flames.
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  Robdar

  There are different groups in judaism, don't some of them take the ot stories literally?

  Of course, but they are a minority.

  One of the Rabbis who witnessed my mikvah believes the stories-- to a point. He speaks eloquently of them. He particularly likes the chutzpah of Abraham talking back to God.
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  Satanus

  Do rabbis move between groups? Do the hassids let them speak?

  S
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  Doug Mason

  Robdar,

  You are quite correct about secular Jews. My Mum told me that her Dad was an atheist; her brothers were either communists or socialists. You will know their fate at the hands of the Nazis.

  My living relations represent the spectrum of Jewish beliefs, while some are Christian, such as I. And I love them all, although through circumstance I have never met them and never shall. I know that God's love is not confined to any belief system, but is based wholly and solely on an individual personal relationship with God. Salvation is individual, personal, not corporate. God is no respecter of persons, for with him there is neither Gentile nor Jew, male or female, for all are one in him.

  (People, Do not become confused by the political country of Israel.)

  Doug
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  Doug Mason

  JD,

  I do not mind if you don't agree with me. I do not expect anyone to agree with everything I believe. That's the joy and freedom I want JWs to experience. It's through honest discussion that we refine our own beliefs, and we can remain the firmest of friends. I know that my own research into the JW system has help remove much fat from my own beliefs. I hope that I will continue to study and as a result continue to amend my beliefs. One's beliefs either grow or die; there is no position in between.

  My comment about Jeremiah goes for any Biblical author and prophet. Each was addressing an immediate audience, using their own idioms, language, customs, etc., etc. That's the very basis of exegesis. Jeremiah wrote very little; he might have written the letter at ch 29. Indeed the structure of the prose and poety is the subject of much interest. Jeremiah's scribe Baruch was responsible for recording and editing Jeremiah's speeches, and these speeches were directed at his immediate audience.

  The first 24 chapters of Jeremiah culminate in and are summarised by the first 14 verses of Jer 25. From then to the end of ch 29, we see judgment against Judah, the nations, and Babylon. We then have a break from this with the salvation chapters, in which God promises these people, including the exiles in Babylon, that if they search for him, he will hear them and fulfill his promises to them. In the process, he promised to give them a new heart, in which the Law is inscribed, and so on.

  Jeremiah was not standing in front of those people in Jerusalem making speeches to them with these great promises but saying to them, "Sorry, folks, but by the way, even though I am telling you these promises that God is making, forget about it. I'm really talking to people who will be living 600 years from now, not to you". Imagine their faith after God told them that!

  Doug
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  Doug Mason

  Abraham? Moses? Red Sea? Goliath? Were they literally true stories, or not? If based on true events, how much Jewish embellishment (historography) was applied?

  Is there any evidence that the Israelites suddenly appeared in the Land of Canaan, or does archaeology indicate they were always the hill people of the land?

  It all does not matter, for the point of these stories, whether true or not, is that the Lord gave them the land they were living in.

  Doug
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  Robdar

  Abraham? Moses? Red Sea? Goliath? Were they literally true stories, or not? If based on true events, how much Jewish embellishment (historography) was applied?

  Doug, those are good questions. I don't know if they are true or not. All I know is that something happened and it is still being felt throughout the world. Was it embellished? I would have to think so--that sort of thing seems to happen.

  Do I agree with everything the nation of Israel does? No. But I think Israel is important. When the Jews were being massacred in Europe, there wasnt really a safe haven to be found. Many of Jews were even denied entry into the US.

  I had 10 months of conversion classes, 3 hours per week in class and sometimes another couple of hours per week in homework, not to mention learning the rituals (which I am still not all that good at), ceremonies and Hebrew. A good 90 percent of what I learned surprised me. Having grown up Christian, my understanding of Judaism wasn't much.

  The experience that lead to my conversion was a mystical one. Without going into too much detail, there is something to Judaism. I have felt a presence that gave me such peace it left me literally starving for more--it has altered my life. Is Judaism a perfect religion? Are Jews perfect? Hardly.

  I truly believe the Scriptures (both ot and nt) are better contemplated instead of accepted at face value. The core of Judaism is an eastern religion. Christianity approaches it from a western viewpoint and that is where a lot of the misunderstandings occur.
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  Robdar

  Do rabbis move between groups? Do the hassids let them speak?

  Those are difficult questions.

  There seems to be movement between the groups here in the KC area.

  The Hasidics accept the reform rabbis I know and believe in their Jewishness. This is not because of beliefs but because the rabbis were born to Jewish mothers. The rabbi of my congregation writes many of the articles for the Jewish newspaper in KC. He also does a lot of the interviews with the local media. So far, the Hasidics haven't burned down his house. LOL

  Although the Orthodox do not consider me a true Jew because I did not go through their conversion process, I still have a place in Israel if I ever need it. Fortunately, the Orthodox are not in charge in Israel. As a matter of fact, there are places in Israel where the Orthodox are barely tolerated.