How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam? (page 16)

1914BS

and why did the birth of gods kingdom in 1914 usher in the most violent period of human history??

jonathan dough

and why did the birth of gods kingdom in 1914 usher in the most violent period of human history??

It wasn't the birth of God's kingdom.

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html#IV

The return of Jesus Christ to earth, his Second Coming, did not occur in 1914, nor did Jesus begin to rule God’s kingdom in 1914. He began his rule in the first century A.D. and received more than a subsidiary share of the kingdom of God. Furthermore, the first judgment day did not begin in 1914 and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are not currently separating the sheep (the Great Crowd) from the goats on behalf of God Almighty.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that there are two kingdoms over which Christ rules. The first kingdom is called the “kingdom of the son of his love” (the New Covenant kingdom) and is a spiritual kingdom with Christ as head over the 144,000 only. This kingdom was brought into existence through the shed blood of Christ under the New Covenant God spoke of through Jeremiah at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and inaugurated at Pentecost. Only the 144,000, Christ and God are parties to the New Covenant with Christ acting as mediator for a short while.

The New Covenant, and presumably the kingdom, expires when “… all of the ‘Israel of God’ (the 144,000) are resurrected to immortality in the heavens” (Insight, 524; parenthesis added). This means that the eternal New Covenant, in furtherance of and pursuant to which Jesus gave his life, lasts approximately two thousand years because the resurrection of the 144,000 began in 1918 and will conclude shortly (Climax Book, 103, 277). The following is their description of the New Covenant kingdom.

“The Kingdom of the Son of His Love.” Ten days after Jesus’ ascension to heaven, on Pentecost of 33 C.E., his disciples had evidence that he had been “exalted to the right hand of God” when Jesus poured out holy spirit upon them. (Ac 1:8,9; 2:1-4, 29-33) The “new covenant” thus became operative toward them, and they became the nucleus of a new “holy nation,” spiritual Israel. - Heb 12:22-24; 1 Pet 2:9, 10; Ga 6:16.
Christ was now sitting at his Father’s right hand and was the Head over this congregation. (Eph 5:23; Heb 1:3; Php 2:9-11) The Scriptures show that from Pentecost 33 C.E. onward, a spiritual kingdom was set up over his disciples. When writing to the first-century Christians at Colossae, the apostle Paul referred to Jesus Christ as already having a kingdom: “[God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.” Col 1:13; compare Ac 17:6, 7.
Christ’s kingdom from Pentecost of 33 C.E. onward has been a spiritual one ruling over spiritual Israel, Christians who have been begotten by God’s spirit to become the spiritual children of God. (Joh 3:3, 5, 6) When such spirit-begotten Christians receive their heavenly reward, they will no longer be earthly subjects of the spiritual kingdom of Christ, but they will be kings with Christ in heaven. - Re 5:9, 10. (Insight, 169).
These spirit-begotten, anointed brothers of Christ become under-priests of the High Priest, “a royal priesthood.” (1 Pe 2:9; Re 5:9, 10; 20:6) These do a priestly work, a “public service” (Php 2:17), and are called “ministers of a new covenant.” (2 Cor 3:6) These called ones must follow Christ’s steps closely, faithfully, until laying down their lives in death; Jehovah will then make them a kingdom of priests, making them sharers in divine nature and will reward them with immortality and incorruption as joint heirs in the heavens with Christ. (1 Pe 2:21; Ro 6:3, 4; 1 Cor 15:53; 1 Pet 1:4; 2 Pet 1:4) The purpose of the covenant is to take out a people for Jehovah’s name as a part of Abraham’s “seed.” (Ac 15:14) They become the “bride” of Christ, and are the body of persons whom Christ takes into a covenant for the Kingdom to rule with Him. (Joh 3:29; 2 Cor 11:2; Re 21:9; Lu 22:29; Re 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6) The purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “Israel of God” are resurrected to immortality in the heavens. (Insight, 524).

The second kingdom, the real kingdom of God, is the “kingdom of our lord and of his Christ” (the 1914 kingdom). It began in 1914 at “the end of the “appointed times of the nations” and is over all mankind on earth” (Insight, 169; Reasoning, 95-97). The 1914 kingdom lasts forever. The 1914 kingdom, or “God’s kingdom” over which Jesus began to rule is of “greater proportions and bigger dimensions…” than the New Covenant kingdom, but Jesus received only a “subsidiary share” in the 1914 kingdom of God.

“Kingdom of Our Lord and of His Christ.” The apostle John, writing toward the close of the first century C.E., foresaw through a divine revelation the future time when Jehovah God, by means of his Son, would make a new expression of divine rulership. At that time, as in the time of David’s bringing the Ark up to Jerusalem, it would be said that Jehovah ‘has taken his great power and begun ruling as king. This would be the time for loud voices in heaven to proclaim: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” - Re 11:15, 17; 1 Ch 16:1, 31.
It is “our Lord,” the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, who asserts his authority over “the kingdom of the world,” setting up a new expression of his sovereignty toward our earth. He gives to his son, Jesus Christ, a subsidiary share in that Kingdom, so that it is termed “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ.” This Kingdom is of greater proportions and bigger dimensions than “the kingdom of the Son of his love,” spoken of at Colossians 1:13. “The Kingdom of the Son of his love” began at Pentecost 33 C.E. and has been over Christ’s anointed disciples; “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ” is brought forth at the end of the “appointed times of the nations” and is over all mankind on earth. - Lu 21:24. (Insight, 169).

This return of Christ in 1914 is the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ version of the Second Coming of Christ, or advent of his presence (Greek parousia), and ushers in the first of three judgment days mentioned at Matthew 25:31-46 where Jehovah’s Witnesses through their door-to-door ministry are separating the earth’s sheep and goats for judgment and destruction.

Upon closer examination of Scripture, however, it is evident that Christ did not return in 1914 to establish and preside over God’s kingdom; Christ began his rule of God’s kingdom, over the entire universe for that matter, in the first century A.D.. The 1914 kingdom cannot be separated from the New Covenant kingdom established by Christ’s blood in the first century. And any valid authority or relationship, or attributes of the 1914 kingdom were granted or realized in the first century and derived from and grounded in the New Covenant and the real kingdom of God related thereto. Consequently, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are gravely mistaken in believing that they are separating the sheep from the goats on behalf of God because the judgment day of Mathew 25:31-46 lies in the future.

First, incontrovertible archeological, historical and scriptural evidence proves that Jesus Christ could not have returned in 1914. The Jehovah’s Witnesses derive the year 1914 by counting forward 2,520 years from the date Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.. Jerusalem, however, was not destroyed in 607 B.C.E. but in 587/586 B.C.E. and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unable to provide a single shred of evidence to the contrary. The issues are numerous and beyond the scope of this paper, but serious students are encouraged to read the online article “Why the Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong believing that the Second Coming of Christ occurred in 1914 and that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E.” at www.jonathan.freehyperspace.com/

Second, Revelation 11:15 (ESV), which the Jehovah’s Witnesses base the establishment of their 1914 kingdom on, is chronologically unsustainable. It provides in part “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever,” but the events in this verse happen after the beginning of the Great Tribulation, not ninety years before. It is heralded by the seventh trumpet, after the six seals are opened, the 144,000 are sealed, the six trumpets are blown and second woe has passed, all of which still lies in the future. Then the seventh angel blows his trumpet. Furthermore, Revelation 11:15-18 occurs after the two witnesses at 11:1-12 are commissioned and taken up to heaven which the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim happened in the 1930s, after 1914.

Third, the true Second Coming of Christ takes place after the Great Tribulation, not years before as the Jehovah’s Witnesses contend.

21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. (Matt. 24:21)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matt. 24:29)

This reference to Christ’s return “immediately” (Greek eutheos meaning directly, i.e. at once or soon, straightaway, forthwith [Vine’s]), follows the pending Great Tribulation, not the tribulation Jerusalem experienced when it was destroyed by Rome in 70 A.D because the pending Great Tribulation shall be the worst that will ever be. Since the slaughter of the 20th century world wars makes Jerusalem’s destruction pale in comparison, Christ’s Second Coming still awaits mankind.

Fourth, Christ did not wait 1,900 years to receive a mere “subsidiary share” of God’s kingdom. He received it all when he rose from the dead and ascended to the throne in heaven to sit at God’s right hand.

18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (Matt. 28:18 NWT)
10 And so YOU are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority. (Col. 2:10 NWT)

Ephesians 1:20-22 invalidates the Jehovah's Witnesses version of the temporary New Covenant kingdom and their 1914 subsidiary kingdom which are not separate kingdoms at all.

... which he worked in Christ, raising him from the dead and seating him at his right hand in the heavens, far above every principality, authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things beneath his feet, ... (NAB)

This Scripture renders their temporary New Covenant invalid because it clearly states that Christ's kingdom authority and power applies to the next age and covers more than the 144,000. And, Christ's share in the 1914 kingdom is total, not partial, and that rule began in he first century, not 1914.

Fifth, Colossians 2:10 clearly indicates that Jesus did not wait until 1914 to become head of every principality and power, but assumed that role in the first century, and therefore the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ reliance on Revelation 12:7-12 is misplaced because these verses make no reference to when Christ began to rule, or that it began in 1914.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time. (Rev. 12:7-12 NWT).

Associating these verses with the hurling of Satan out of heaven allegedly in 1914 (Reasoning, 96-97) only begs the question of when Christ began to rule and when Satan was dislodged. Daniel indicates that Christ began to rule God’s kingdom in the first century when he rose to heaven, on the clouds.

13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with (“on” NAB) the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin. (Dan. 7:13, 14 NWT)

Christ began to rule God’s kingdom when he ascended to heaven after his crucifixion in the first century. He did not wait to rule until 1914 right before he descended to earth invisibly. This is made all the more evident by John when he referred to the resurrected Jesus as the then “Ruler of the kings of the earth,” that is, during the first century (Rev. 1:5 NWT). Accordingly, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ claim that “… in 1914 Christ began ruling as King,” is incorrect (Great Man, ch. 132, 3).

Without any scriptural support the Jehovah’s Witnesses also assume Satan was not hurled out of heaven until 1914 and attempt to attach the establishment of God’s kingdom to this event as well.

The establishment of God’s kingdom is here associated with the hurling of Satan out of heaven. This had not occurred at the time of rebellion in Eden, as is shown in Job chapters 1, 2. Revelation was recorded in 96 C.E., and Revelation 1:1 shows that it deals with events then future. (Reasoning, 233)

It appears they have failed to identify the proper issues. We are dealing with the New Testament, not the Old Testament, and any references to the book of Job are irrelevant. And even though Revelation might have been recorded in 96 A.D., their claim that Revelation deals only with then-future events is mistaken. Chapter 12 is obviously a flashback in time referring to Christ’s birth, death, resurrection and ascension to heaven. That he took the throne of God’s kingdom in verses 10 and 11 in the first century and not the 20th century is clear by the description of the persecution of the woman who gave birth to Christ, and the woman’s offspring - the Church of Christian believers.

3 And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.
7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a oud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
13 Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. 17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus. (Rev. 12:3-17 NWT)

Satan and the Roman empire did not wait until 1914 to wage war against Christians but did so, viciously, beginning in the first century. Accordingly, not only did salvation, power, God’s kingdom and Christ’s authority come before Christian persecution began, but the hurling of Satan to earth associated with the so-called 1914 kingdom happened at Christ’s ascension or thereabouts before the onslaught of Christian persecution, not 1,900 years later.

Sixth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have gone to great length to push God’s kingdom and the kingdom’s priesthood, and the events of Revelation 11:15, 12:10, and others, into the 20th and 21st century. As stated, they believe “Revelation was recorded in 96 B.C.E. and Rev 1:1 shows it deals with events then future” (Reasoning, 233), but this is simply not true. Revelation by no means speaks exclusively of future events but includes past and then-current events. And, as just mentioned, Revelation 12:4, 5 recounts the birth of Christ and his ascension to God and His throne, all of which occurred more than fifty years prior to the book’s writing.

Indeed, John was instructed “write what things you saw, and what things are, and what things are about to occur after these things” (Rev. 1:19, Green’s Literal Translation). Furthermore, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Bible states of John: “By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day …” (Rev. 1:10). Elsewhere they claim that the “Lord’s day” was 1914: then came to pass “the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ,” and “that ‘by inspiration’ he was transported forward in time to the ‘Lord’s day‘” in 1914 (Great Man, ch. 132, 2,3).

But the Bible does not say that. A literal reading provides “I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord’s day …” (Green’s Literal). He was not transported to the Lord’s day. The Lord’s day was Sunday (NAB n. 1, 10. See also N. Turner, Peake’s Commentary, 1046), the day he was caught up in the Spirit and began to see visions.

This is brought out by the concurrent and following chapters of Revelation. John’s immediate vision was of Christ who instructed him as to what he should write down (Rev. 1:5-29) beginning with letters to the seven churches in the first century. (Rev. chapters 2-4). Afterwards he envisions the Great Tribulation and only much later events surrounding Christ’s Second Coming or parousia, which could not, therefore, have occurred in 1914. Jesus said as much at Matthew 24:29,30, that his parousia, or Second Coming, would happen after the Great Tribulation, not before.

This is a very significant point; it is understandable why the Jehovah’s Witnesses insist that all the events of Revelation take place after 96 A.D.; otherwise, it would undermine any attempt to establish God’s “1914 kingdom” and the New Covenant priesthood (which they claim is not established in heaven until their first resurrection of the 144,000 beginning in 1918) in the first century, where they rightfully belong.

Pushing every event or claim in Revelation into the future is so important to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ 1914 kingdom and New Covenant priesthood theories that they apparently interpreted scripture in their New World Translation to cast other then-past and current events forward in time. To illustrate, a literal translation by Green of Revelation 1:5,6 provides that Jesus “…made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father ….” This means that the first century Christians were already part of the established God’s kingdom which included a priesthood. All Christian believers were, and are, priests of this priesthood. And it is this kingdom into which they were transferred at Colossians 1:13; “…he transferred us to the kingdom of the son of his love.”

As mentioned earlier, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that this latter New Covenant kingdom at verse 1:13 is a completely separate, temporary kingdom for only the 144,000, but Revelation 1:5, 6 associates, or ties, both kingdoms together and regards them as the same, in effect pulling the so-called 1914 kingdom and its associated kingdom of priests back to the first century, thereby correctly including it in the New Covenant kingdom. What they have actually done is move God’s kingdom up to 1914, moved the Second Coming back to 1914, and combined them.

To counter this reality the Jehovah’s Witnesses changed the words “made us,” past tense, to mean a future event: “made us to be a kingdom, priests …” (Rev. 1:6 NWT). They did the same in Revelation 5:10, changing “you made us kings and priests…” (Green’s Literal) to read “… and you made them to be a kingdom of priests to our God.” Peter disagrees with their interpretation at 1 Peter 2:9: “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own …” (NAB). He did not recognize two kingdom priesthoods separated by 1,900 years. They were not to become a royal priesthood.

By reading these verses relating to the kingdom priesthood together it is evident that the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New Covenant kingdom priesthood and events associated with the so-called “1914 kingdom of God” began in the first century and they are not separate kingdoms, which is exactly what God purposed when he entered into a covenant relationship with King David.

1914BS

I know it was not the birth of gods kingdom because JWs dont celebrate birhtdays

Robdar

Many opologies to you.........I misunderstood what your were saying. I agree with you. Lilly

Lilly, no need for apologies. I should have made myself clearer.

I really enjoyed chatting with you today. I am still smiling.

parakeet

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice?

$250,000 in unmarked bills in a plain goatskin sack left at the back door of the temple in Jerusalem. The FBI is still investigating.

Equal to Adam?

Unknown. Adam's ransom had to be paid in fig leaves, which for some unaccountable reason suddenly became very popular.

Robdar

Parakeet's a smart ass!

I love smart asses.

~grin~

BurnTheShips

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

You start from the position that an equivalency, a ransom payment, is needed. You start from a false position. There was no need to replace a sinning Adam with a sinless Jesus. There was only love. Infinite love. This exceeds Adam's finite failure.

Also, I warn you all from long experience. Reform Jews, especially if they are converts, will lead your soul to perdition. :-P

BTS

parakeet

Robdar:

Parakeet's a smart ass!

I love smart asses.

People often forget that even tiny parakeets can still bite.

parakeet, of the smart-ass-and-proud-of-it class

jonathan dough

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

You start from the position that an equivalency, a ransom payment, is needed. You start from a false position. There was no need to replace a sinning Adam with a sinless Jesus. There was only love. Infinite love. This exceeds Adam's finite failure.

Uh, I don't think you read my original post, the first one at the very top where I argue the opposite. I think we agree, but you didn't actually read it, did you? Understandable as it is long and maybe a bit difficult to understand? The title of the thread actuall is rhetorical and begs the question.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-3.html#15

PSacramento

When Adam chose, as the story goes, to partake of the forbiden fruit he did so willingly and as such, all that decended fro him carried that "sin", the sin of Adam's "fall from Grace".

With Jesus's death, Grace came back to all who chose to receive it.

Grace, God's infinite love and mercy, given freely to us, but still dependant on our free will to accept this gift.

My 2 cents anyways.

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

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