How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough 189 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    I have read it, but then I see it differently from you, because I have also read it compared to actual history of the times.

    What actual history of the times would reflect on this?

  • designs

    As can be seen there are dozens of views on Soteriology, so much of which produces unnecessary angst and superstition among Believers.

    Just do the essentials- Be kind and helpful to others, be environmentally conscious and active.

  • Pistoff
    My point is that the idea that they were literal is a relatively recent concept, less than 50 years old.

    Typo, my bad; I meant 250. Modern fundamentalism comes from the Scofield bible, you can look it up.

  • Pistoff
    As a matter of fact I have and I do. If it weren't for Christian sense of morality, during WW II and especially today, Israel would not exist. The nation of Israel exists today because the USA is its greatest ally. If we weren't, it would be gone, barring divine intervention. But you don't believe in that.

    What scholars?

    The UN instituted the state of Israel; are you suggesting that christian ethics, not political will, created the state of Israel? Which teachings of Jesus did they use to establish a democracy by depopulating a country? The one where he said my kingdom is not of this world? Or turn the other cheek? Tell me how christian ethics will deal with the nuclear threat from Iran; what principles of Jesus will prevail?

    The official position of the US, a secular country by definition, is to protect the largest democracy in the Mideast. I concede that in the last 8 years, the policy toward Israel (as opposed to worldwide jewry) has been reinforced by the fundamentalist christian beliefs of the far right. Of course, like you, they also perpetuate the lie that the "Jews" killed Jesus, so maybe it is a wash in your eyes?

    Would you be so protective of Israel if it did not figure in end times chronology?

    NO I do not believe divine intervention. But you are welcome to ask him to smite me; I will wait here to see what happens.

    Meanwhile, how about it? David and the census, did 70,000 really die because David counted heads?

    Does God still care if I kept my foreskin?

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    Re your posts 494 and 496. These passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah refer to their own times. And the passage in Deuteronomy needs to be read in the context of the time it was composed and edited - from Josiah through the Exile.


  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    Jesus was not a Pharisee. He was more aligned with the "People of the Land" ("am hares") of Jeremiah's time, speaking with the common folk, using their imagery. Jesus had more in common with Jeremiah in that they both spoke against the temple priests, they were more aligned with the agrarian populace.

    It was Paul who was a Pharisee, you will be aware when they arose.


  • designs

    Pistoff, you're dealing with Fundamentalists who, some, expect Jesus to touch down in Jerusalem or have a literal New Jerusalem touch down on the earth in Israel....kinda like a big Tardis from Dr. Who.

    We try to get them to read the Talmud and the Jewish Sages to get an idea of Jewish literature and idioms but..............something about a horse to water comes to mind.....

  • lovelylil2

    This thread is becoming too much of a Christian against Jew thread.

    Some of my points were misunderstood.

    The Jewish Nation today still lives under the law convenant. This is because they do not accept Jesus Christ and thus did not enter into the covenant of Grace with him. So we simply cannot tell them they are no longer under the law covenant. No other covenant exists to them.

    "We" Christian believers ARE the ones in the covenant referred to the covenant of Grace or the "new" covenant. This covenant is different than the one made thru Moses because now God's law is written in our hearts and we live by principles and not laws. This is the new covenant professied about by Jeremiah, chapter 11.

    The invitation into this covenant was first offered to the natural Jews. That is why even Jesus did not deal much with the Gentiles. The Gentile invitation was not made until later when most of Isreal rejected this new arrangement.

    Our Christian scriptures also teach that although most of Isreal refused to enter this covenant of Grace, God did NOT totally forsake them as one poster on this thread said he did and in fact we are dmonished as Christian believers to show humility when dealing with Natural Jews because God still has a plan for them. Read Romans chapter 11.

    I think I will speak more about this with Robyn off this thread. I don't like the negative spirit developing here. Peace to all, Lilly

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Scripture does not explain the reason WHY blood (death) was necessary, only that it was.

    To relate a reason to the stories of Adham (Hebrew: "man") is to assume that the accounts in Genesis are to be taken literally.

    The practice of ritualistic murder has been common in all religious communities; even kings of Judah sacrificed their own children.


  • designs


    Realize there are many opposing views within Theology about Covenants. Dispensationalists still consider the Jews Chosen and their covenant solid. Some Messianics view the 144,000 as literal holy virgin Jewish men. Your particular view of the New Covenant came via John Calvin. On and on it goes.

    Some Fundamentalists are Pro-Israel, some against to the point of racism. The idea that God is now a Jew sets their hair on edge but that's the fun of picking apart a theology filled with logical gaps and ethical lapses.

    Solution- Serve water to strangers, a Jewish custom, its the simple acts of kindness that center us all.

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