How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough 189 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • lovelylil2


    I was speaking about religious practicing jews. I think you are speaking more from the point of view of a non practicing Jew. You are Jewish by hertiage only?

    I happen to know several Jewish Rabbis in my area and also attended a class the local synogogue had for Christians to better understand the Jewish faith and and you are correct in some ways some of the Torah is not to be taken literally. But I was taught the Jews do in fact believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacab, etc existed and believed Moses was a great prophet of God. Maybe since you are not a practicing Jew you really cannot say what most Jews believe? I do not know I am just asking.

    I learned a lot as a Christian by reading the Torah. The Jews do not have their bible put together like we Christians put together the Hebrew Scriptures. What we call the "old testament", (sorry if this offends my Jewish friends), and they put books like Proverbs and JOB under "wisdom" books. JOB was not an actually person but the book of JOB represents the constant struggle for man to do good while under life's stress and even though he is tempted away from God. This book has other meanings as well. Yes, JOB is a metaphor. Also the book of Psalms are not to be taken literally, they are old prayers and songs to God. However, all of the bible even though written in metaphors or containing prayers, etc teaches some kind of LITERAL truth. That is so in the Hebrew scriptures as well as the Christian Greek ones. That is what the riches are in it and why the scriptures are called a "great pearl of wisdom". When you do not interpret the bible with a narrow view, you get the greater meaning of the texts.

    Again, I am not trying to tell you what every Jew believes but I certainly know many who are not completely secular, though many are today, and some Jews do believe that the Bible "characters" in the Torah are real and the histories are real and the prophecies are real. I know because I speak with them every day. And because the Local temple here teaches that this is true.

    And as far as being "secular", we can say that about most Christians today too. May claim belief in God but yet prove it false by their actions.

    Peace, Lilly

  • lovelylil2


    We are both in agreement that some natural Jews will still be brought into the convenant with Jesus as per Romans 11 and that this will not happen on the basis of the old covenant. Sorry I did not make myself clear on that.

    What I mean by you cannot tell religious practicing Jews they are not in the Mosaic law convenant with God is that as a nation they never accepted the Covenant of Grace so to them they feel they are still under the law. While you certainly can tell them in words the law convenant is obsolete, they still will not accept it. To accept it, they need to accept Christ as thier messiah. Since they do not, the only convenant that exists "in their minds" is that of Moses. Again, I am speaking of religous practicing jews only, not secular ones.

    Hope this clears that up. Lilly

  • Robdar
    But I was taught the Jews do in fact believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacab, etc existed and believed Moses was a great prophet of God.

    Lilly, I never said we do not believe Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc existed. I never said we do not belive Moses was a great prophet. It is just some of the stories and miracles surrounding the above named people (and others) that we question.

    I am still not certain by what you mean when you say "natural jews. Sorry.

    BTW, I am a practicing Jew. A reform Jew, not an Orthodox.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    Rather than coming from "left field", I suggest my thoughts represent the views of contemporary, conventional, middle-of-the-road scholarship.

    If you email me, and you will find my address at:

    I will send you a some bits and pieces I have collected during my current research. Going by the depths you exhibit through yuor writings, I know you will find these very useful.


  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    My thoughts represent the views of contemporary, conventional, middle-of-the-road scholarship.

    I'm so burned out on this stuff my mind is shrinking. I don't want it to disappear altogether. Let's let this one lie, although feel free to post some links to your references. My views are pretty orthodox, conventional. Lil is on the right track. Christianity is all about the New Covenant. Where is PSsacramento? He seems to be up on this a bit and has some views. You out there? Maybe a separate thread on the NC?

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    Salvation is individual, personal, not corporate.

    That's a great line. Not corporate!

    Here is maybe where we disagree. I don't think Jeremiah wrote Scripture, or Isaiah, or Ezekiel etc. I honestly believe it was the Almighty using Jeremiah, so even if Jeremiah thought he was only speaking to that time, God intended it to apply to the future. Same with the Book of Daniel. Daniel or whoever wrote it didn't understand what he was writing. He was just the pen when it came to his prophecies. Same with John at Revelation.

    Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the (or one of) central piece of Christianity. You being a Christian, I'm surprised you don't see this. Much of Scripture has dual application.

  • AGuest

    May you have peace!

    Just a heads' up: per Romans 11:26, 27... ALL of Israel will be saved, not just some:

    "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this [is] My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

    Thus, it not just the Jews (those descended from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, which, along with a sprinkling of Levites, make up the "Jews" - the 2-tribe kingdom of "Judah"), either. The entire nation of Israel will be in that covenant. So that, along with those from Judah (the "Jews")... ALL those descended from Simeon, Reuben, Levi, Asher, Gad, Zebulun, Naphtali, Joseph, Dan, and Issachar (which make up the "Samaritans" - the 10-tribe kindom of "Israel") will ALSO be saved.

    The reason for the inaccuracy is the false teaching... and resultant incorrect belief... that "Israel" was exiled into Babylon. The TRUTH is that it was the Jews... the 2-tribe kingdom of JUDAH (which included Benjamin, the tribe absorbed by Judah to keep from becoming extinct)... which the Most Holy One of Israel referred to as "Oholibah"... that was captured by Nebuchanezzar and taken to Babylon. The kingdom of ISRAEL (the other 10 tribes)... which the Most Holy One of Israel referred to as "Oholah"... was captured by the Assyrians LONG before... and exiled into Assyria and Samaria.

    The land of the Jews (the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah) was Judea, with its capital city of Jerusalem, where the temple was. The land of the Samaritans (the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel) was Samaria, with its capital city of Bethel, where Jeroboam set up false worship (by appointing priests from among whomever he wished, rather than from among Levi).

    People tend to teach, and other believe that when the Jews were exiled to... and came back from... Babylon... all of ISRAEL was exiled there and ALL of Israel returned from there. That is not the truth. While there is a lot of emphasis put on the Jews... and rightly so, as my Lord descended through that line... we cannot forget the other 10 tribes... as the world very often does.

    Jews AND Samaritans = Israel

    That is why my Lord is recorded to have said to his disciples, "You will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, and in ALL Judea AND Samaria." Because he sent them to "Israel." Matthew 15:24; Acts 1:8; 8:14; 11:1

    Paul... was the apostle to the [non-Israelite] "nations." Acts 11:1; 13:16, 26, 43, 48; 14:1; 15:7, 8, 14, 23; Romans 11:13

    BTW - "gentiles"... are non-JEWS... and thus include the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel AND non-Israelite nations.

    Thus, ALL of Israel... and SOME people "from ALL of the non-Israelite nations"... will be in that covenant... and saved. Revelation 5:9, 10; 7:9

    Again, I bid you peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA (who is of the female persuasion, dear JonDough... and thank you VERY kindly, dear Robdar!)

  • lovelylil2


    Thank you for that information. I need time to digest it but appreciate it.


    Many opologies to you.........I misunderstood what your were saying. I agree with you. Lilly

  • 1914BS

    I belive in the rensom but why has it taken 2000 years and nothing has happened???

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    I belive in the rensom but why has it taken 2000 years and nothing has happened???


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