Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough 115 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    Editing to reflect Jonathan's above response which was being posted while I was responding to another comment..

    Are you really in Syria right now?

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    The Trinity debate is a stalemate corner because both sides offer up scriptures as 'proof' and are equally committed theologically to a concept that cannot be settled by us humans.

    I disagree. I think it can be settled. It is not just a matter of pointing to proof texts, but using logic to understand them, compare them and the mountains of theological study over time that supports the Trinity doctrine. Objectively, it is anything but a stalemate. The proof is overwhelming. But the main point I was making earlier was to illustrate the deception that is being perpetuated by the Society by teaching a Trinity that is not the Trinity doctrine. That is the lie I'm trying to undue.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    go with God and let the Arians do the same without making it a stumbling stone that causes divisions within the body of Christ

    Again, I must disagree. The Church at Nicaea I didn't let the heretical Arians "go with God." They put them in their place and in the process did not cause any stumbling blocks within the body of Christ. I'm obligated to do the same. We are obligated to fight for the truth.

  • Lillith26

    We are obligated to fight for the truth.

    .................................................Chain Gun

    NO STUPID!- you are obligated to love your god and be peacefull with all manner of men- SO GET TO LOVING YOUR NEIGBOUR ALREADY


  • yknot


    I'm not sure I agree with that at all, for Christ said, and I paraphrase, "If you do not believe that I AM you will die in your sins." And, a true believer must confess that "Jesus is Lord." Christ took the name of the Almighty "I AM," and "Lord" is meant in the higher divine sense, that He is Lord and God. One must confess and believe in His Divinity.

    Yawn..... JWs profess Christ's divinity when pressed. I haven't re-read your early postings were you ever a JW? The issue isn't divinity but co-equal/co-eternal..... if you have been a JW refer to your Reasoning book.....

    Well, I can't separate 607 from 1914. I spent too much time researching and writing about that issue, but I do agree that their eyes glass over at the mention of it. It is boring and numerical and probably a bit over some of their heads. That is why I prefer to begin with the Trinity doctrine or the 144,000. Easier to grasp. My point with the Trinity doctrine is to give it a fair hearing and set the record straight. It is not just me talking. Catholics and Protestants are united in this. And, I have yet to see them deal with proof texts all that much. Not recently, at least, perhaps buried in these threads somewhere. There are too many texts that just have not been touched on and avoided. I'm within my rights I think. And all I did was respond to three of hers.

    I appreciate (dang can you tell I was commenting last night!) wanting to present the trinity as you view it (more power to ya) but to name Angel Eyes in your title, her post only and to insinuate she needs an education by the likes of YOU is a bit Bully-ish and arrogant.

    Based on the "I spent too much time" comment above gives this thread a sense of this being about your intellect and findings over others on this board- again a bit arrogant and bully-ish.

    I am happy you are satisfied with your finding and happy to have you discuss them in a manner that is respectful, patient and tolerant.

    As for the whole Protestant/Catholic commentary......... What ...Arians should shut-up and just join in with your POV because majority of Protestants and Catholics currently profess Trinity! Well if you are gonna suggest that as an argument then perhaps the Lutherans need to just stop all that Protestant nonsense an just return to the RCC because the RCC (who has far more members) agree. Or since there are more Muslims than Xians we should all just start bowing down to Mecca tomorrow morning..... geez this list could go on regarding majority opinions.

    Please by all means start as many threads as you like on trinity, 144,000 or anything that sets your heart aflight but do not pick on someone who has just started posting and is just starting to question the WTS it is not only a HUGH turn-off but increases the chances of them returning to the WTS in full because of 'persecution'.......and we want Angel Eyes to stay and grow and become a historically knowlegable JW should she decide to remain a JW!

    Syrian Arab Republic..... no

    We will have to agree to disagree.....but try not to let things be dividing when we have other points that are uniting.....

    The church of Nicea caused a lot of unneccessary bloodshed all under the guise of Constantine's quest to unite his kingdom using this new belief. Further more you already know that when Constantine in the dying days chose to relinquish his pagan status he did so as an ARIAN!

    I Love you in Christ Jonathan but please show greater mildness next time in imitation of OUR savior.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    please show greater mildness next time in imitation of OUR savior.

    And I would suggest you educate yourself a bit by reading what I have written on the topic before your criticize me instead of assuming something you might be confused about. The Reasoning Book in relevant part is covered in detail in those pages. With respect to Christ's mildness you also might try and read Scripture a bit closer. This was someone who assaulted people with a whip of ropes and repeatedly gave false teachers a thorough tongue lashing which they deserved, calling them hypocrites, etc. Christ was not one dimensional so please don't moralize to me about how to imitate Him. I suspect He would disapprove of you pandering to the Arians. As far as picking on Angel Eyes, it is never meant personally, and there is absolutely no difference in what I have done and what you and others have done. One side makes a point and I respond. It is a far cry from persecution. If you cared about her you would want her to have a thorough grasp of some fundamental truth. She's smart. She just has to be pointed in the right direction.

    The issue isn't divinity but co-equal/co-eternal.....

    You are apparantly confused. These two aspects/issues are subsumed by the notion of divinity. Christ's divinity in the Trinitarian sense is to be co-equal and co-eternal, among other things. It is irrelevant that the JWs have invented their own definition of divinity when it comes to defining the Trinity doctrine. And as far as "my" intelligence is concerned, these aren't my theories or theology but the Catholic and Protestant theologians from times past.

  • yknot


    I am not being critical of your religious conclusions on your website or on this post but only that of your approach involving Angel Eyes and assuming you are 100% correct in your understanding. None of us are 100% when it comes to God as imperfect humans.

    The rest of your comment is of self-defensive emotional reaction trying to invoke debate or agrument in order to gain some sense of justification which I shall not afford you as I know my own imperfection and it is fruitless to your alleged 'wanting to discuss trinity".

    Reason with others dear Jonathan don't cause them to become defensive.......more honey, less vinegar.

    Still love ya with a big ole Christian hug....

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    and assuming you are 100% correct in your understanding. None of us are 100% when it comes to God as imperfect humans.
    The rest of your comment is of self-defensive emotional reaction trying to invoke debate or agrument in order to gain some sense of justification which I shall not afford you as I know my own imperfection and it is fruitless to your alleged 'wanting to discuss trinity".
    Reason with others dear Jonathan don't cause them to become defensive.

    Hold on, now. I never "assumed I was 100% correct in my understanding," and even if I did that is my perogative. In this particular instance I do feel that I'm 100 percent correct in my belief based upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Isn't there anything in your interpretation of scripture and/or life that you are certain about? Come on, of course there is. Furthermore, it is not necessary to be 100% certain about something to believe it. People are sent to the death chamber all the time on "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," far short of 100 percent certainty. 80 percent? 90 percent? There is a time and place not to equivocate. I am not denying my flaws and imperfections, but that cannot be the basis of my not understanding something. Paul was certain about some things, absolutely certain, and he was imperfect. It is in large part about weighing the evidence, but that is something the anti-trinitarians don't seem to want to do.

    Mine isn't an emotional response, it's a logical response even if it draws out your emotions. Neither is it a defensive knee-jerk reaction. You are the one doing the attacking, remember? Mine was a reaction, a response. I'm just trying to set the record straight as to what the Trinity doctrine teaches, and how the Society has distorted that theory and mislead people into believing that the doctrine of the Trinity stands for something it does not. This isn't child's play or an academic exercise. The stakes are too high and the time short.

  • yknot

    If you feel attacked by me I apologize.

    Those of us responding felt we were acting in defense (not in attacking offense) of Angel Eyes based on your condescending title singling her out rather then an open discussion of Trinity.

    Evidence for or against trinity much like beauty is often based on the eye of the beholder.

    Since you care to discuss trinity perhaps starting a thread appropriately titled to such discussion should be embarked and let this one fall to wayside as your 'wanting to discuss trinity' has been received more like 'wanting to bash Angel Eyes with my self-opined superiority' to many on this forum.

    Don't take any of this personally rather graciously accept responsibility for the downfall of this ill-titled thread.

    I want you to have successful threads with meaningful dialogue.

    I have no more to comment and I am sure neither do you as it would only become circular and pointless endeavoring to further sabotage your claim of wanting to discuss or set straight the profession of Trinity versus being about the appropriateness in of the thread title.

    Goodnight Sweet Jonathan

  • angel eyes
    angel eyes

    wow!!!!!!! Ive only just seen this all i want to say is "THANKYOU" to all who have defended me....its truly truly appreciated.

    Yes once again i have been singled out...but to see such nice comments from friends on here has warmed my heart....


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