Who is the ruler of this world? (page 7)

jonathan dough

PS wrote:

I countered that I know only one Lord and that is the Son of God Jesus, and I know only One God and no one else rules above them and asked my Mom where in the bible does it show Jesus and God SUBJECt to Satan.

Me: After rereading your posts it comes across as a bit vague and confusing. You might be reading a bit more into "Satan is ruler of the world" than there is. I don't think it means that "Jesus and God were subject to Satan." When referencing "the World" for instance in Jn ch. 17 the emphasis is on overcoming it, being separate from it, and he wasn't just talking about the time before his resurrection. It is clear he has all power, but the World is an ugly thing and that is what shall be destroyed (and all that the term implies) one day. Satan really is the ruler of the world, and hopefully Christians are not a part of it. Things are ugly out there. Hopefully you aren't saying it is Christ's World in the sense that He is calling the detailed shots and was behind the holocaust? It seems so patently obvious to me that Satan is the ruler of the world, for now, and believers should not be a part of the world, even though we live among it. The JWs are right about some things. And the Bible does mean what it says sometimes.

Maybe you could rephrase your original question?

Kenneson

It's obvious to me that there are several connotations given to the word "world" in Scripture.

The question is, what "world" does Satan have sway over? I would say it is anything that

is opposed to God. But, God has his own world (anything not opposed to himself)(Rev. 15:2-4)

"God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish

but have eternal life." John 3:16 So, the question is: who's world do I choose?

Narkissos

Imo, and deliberately limiting the discussion to the Fourth Gospel, there are not "two worlds" but one, which is considered from different perspectives. From the angle of "beginning" and "end" this one world has one ultimate source and end -- "God". But from the present angle there is a strong antagonism, incompatibily, mutual rejection and "hate" between "God/Jesus/the elect" and "the world".

Interestingly the two perspectives meet in the Prologue and the so-called "Priestly prayer" (chapters 1; 17)

1:9f: "The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into being through him; yet the world did not know him."

17:9ff: "I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and I speak these things in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into theworld. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth.
"I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

I don't think it arguable that the "good" and "bad" references to "the world" point to a different referent. It is the same world. The dualistic antagonism is not absolute, it is a moment. Upstream and downstream of it, as it were, it is solved. God's / Jesus' / the elect's action aims at saving the world (3:17; 4:42; 12:47).

jaguarbass

My guess the ruler of this world is George Bush the dingbats daddy.

If I'm wrong about Bush, I'll go with David Rockefeller

homeschool

BTTT

PSacramento

JD,

I think that you make a valid point, perhaps that is why most WT refer to satan as the ruler od this system of things and not so much the world anymore.

But the title of the literature that was "given" to me was "Who is the ruler of this world?", hence the title of this thread.

Still, to call Satan, who has limited power of things, the ruler of this system of things, much less the world, seems to be incorrect.

At least in regards to scripture and the events of Christ's ressurection, Christ is the ruler.

Who is the ruler of this world?