" an evil, wicked, hateful apostate " is NOT how I'd characterise you, Big Tex. Not at all.
Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles
by Robert_V_Frazier 203 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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jookbeard
Unfortunately Spike that's the kind of language that your loving brethren like to use to those like Tex, myself and the tens of thousands like us who have dared question the lies and filth that spews from from your god Jeehoobah's mother organization, my own sister even honestly believed that I was Satanically possessed by a demon, thankfully Spike our lives move on for the better.
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Big Tex
" an evil, wicked, hateful apostate " is NOT how I'd characterise you, Big Tex. Not at all.
Wow. Well thank you Spike, I truly appreciate that.
Let me respond by saying I do not think you are a troll. I do not like using that term, although on the Internet it sometimes applies. From what I've read of your posts you seem to be to be someone who believes what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.
We may disagree but may I say, I used to try very hard on this board to discuss rather than react. It's been a while since I've been here so maybe it's just taken me an adjustment period to get used to the back and forth.
Having said that, I do think jookbeard brings up a good point. I used that phrase tongue in cheek, but for some ex-Witnesses, it does hurt a great deal. I've seen where the term "hateful" is used to describe posters on this board and I disagree with that as strongly as possible. What terms like that do is to demean and put down folks who sometimes have had extraordinary bad experiences that caused them to leave that sect. The Watchtower itself has spoken many times about "righteous anger". I think it is fair to desribe many ex-Witnesses as feeling that.
Jehovah's Witnesses have made many, many mistakes. That they do not acknowledge those mistakes and instead blame those who have been hurt, only compounds the problem.
Kicking someone when they're down is not Christian. Surely we can agree that Christianity is based on love as well as joy, mercy, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faith and self-control. Interjecting snide comments, and I'm not making accusations to you, or throwing around terms such as "hateful" only widens the gulf between us.
It also serves to pick at a sore that is, for some, very tender. I'm guilty of allowing myself to let someone goad me. I don't like giving away my personal power, the control I have over myself, to someone else.
Jehovah's Witnesses have a great deal to answer for. The organization is responsible for causing pain, separation and even death. I have to believe, if there is a god who cares, that there will be an accounting.
Be well,
Chris
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AndersonsInfo
Sola: I agree with many of the statements you have made in your posts. You see the problems and don’t always agree with the GB; however, you love the organization because you received good from it and it seems clear from what you said that you won’t forsake it even though you see the harm it has done to others. Well, you have a right to your opinion and to your choices.
Nevertheless, I have a bone to pick with you because you called the elders who mishandle child-abuse accusations, "elders gone wild."
From the context in your posts where you use the phrase, “elders gone wild,” I understand the issues as you explained them from your vantage point, but I don't agree with your premise that the problems in the WT organization were and are due to elders mishandling child abuse allegations.
Awake! editor, Harry Peloyan, would agree with you though for he once told me, "If the elders don't do what we tell them to do in cases of child abuse, we'll let them just dangle in the wind. They won’t get any help from us!"
It was absurd—headquarters blaming elders for not following instructions from them respecting an accusation of molestation; consequently, messing things up so much that WT was going to abandon them; Yet, they allowed pedophiles to continue to serve as elders and MSs even though many young people were hurling accusations of molestation, not at family members as the NYTimes suggested, but at congregational supervisory people. (In the 18 cases of child molestation in one area of Tennessee involving 3 congregations, not one of them was incest.)
When I was in the Writing Dept., I had no knowledge of the application of the "two-witness" rule used in child abuse accusations. No one I dealt with in Writing mentioned it, and besides, what woman would have any idea that such a thing was going on behind the scenes in judicial hearings? Even elders, I found out later, who had never handled a child abuse case, didn't understand the rule’s application to child abuse, and if they did, they trusted they were doing what was right in God’s sight since the instructions came through God’s visible organization.
In the "Flock" book, p. 111, where it highlights handling judicial cases and the need for two or three witnesses to prove guilt, there is no mention of “child molestation.” If those words were mentioned in the sentence, "There must be two or three eyewitnesses, ... ; no action can be taken if there is only one witness," I bet that would have caught the attention of moral and ethical elders immediately. They would have been dismayed if that sentence had been worded like this: "No action can be taken if there is only one witness to a child's molestation." One needs not be a rocket scientist to know that WT would never allow that statement in the book. BTW, I speculate this was a crafty omission by those who engineered this book.
Personally, I've never thought "elders gone wild" are totally responsible for the miserable treatment Big Tex and countless others have received at the hands of JW leaders. I don’t overlook their actions, but what can you expect of this arrogant, know-it-all bunch which can’t see beyond the noses on their faces what love and compassion is really about. (I used to be that way, too.) I think that all the elders, “liberal or conservative” except maybe you and some of your friends, are way out of their league coping, handling or managing such awful societal problems as child sexual abuse and any other crime or complex human problem.
From the very beginning when the elder arrangement was born, “judicial hearings” were doomed to failure because of all of the “do’s” and “don’t do’s,” instituted by the leadership; plus, disciplinary action taken towards those who “don’t do.” Excommunication could have been acceptable if it had been done the Bible way. And the WT’s way makes elders “policemen” who lead a kind of moral “reign of terror.”
The job of elder should have consisted mainly of shepherding, whose words based on scripture would have consoled and comforted the members whether innocent, or even the guilty if requested. Additionally, they would have kept busy operating the church, giving up-building talks, and preparing the members for the end of the world. (It is after-all an apocalyptic religion.)
From my observations, the “elder gone wild” problem, for the most part, was caused by WT leaders making many rules/policies/regulations. The majority of posters on this thread and I agree that it’s the stupid system that WT created that is to blame. They created some monsters by giving untrained and, for the most part, uneducated men, who became arrogantly humble, ambiguous rules and requirements to follow and then blamed these men for not getting it right.
Plus, at the top of the stupid system, more uneducated men, who love their religious fantasies, believed that nobody who became a JW elder could be an active pedophile if he was repentant. That nobody who went out in field service, conducted Bible Studies, attended all congregation meetings, and showed by their deeds that they loved Jehovah, would harm a child. They even foolishly believed that any wrongdoing a person did before baptism would not be repeated because the “truth” changed his/her life.
Oh, how WT argued in court that they had no fiduciary responsibility for what bad elders and ministerial servants did, but their pleas didn’t work because the court overruled their claim. If WT appointed these men, the court ruled, WT was responsible for what these men did, whether being inept at their job as elders, or for harming a child because they were allowed to hold positions although “known” by headquarters, but not to the community or the congregation to have molested in the past.
Recently, I gave a lecture in Switzerland at the University of Geneva about Secrets of Pedophilia within JWs religion. A few of my statements will be familiar to those who have read my commentary on the CD, Secrets of Pedophilia in an American Religion. However, in my lecture, I put the blame of this child-abuse mess, not on the elders, but squarely on the backs of those it belongs—the heads of the WT Society. And this means more folks than just the original GB, the majority of them are dead now anyway, but upon the two living GB members instrumental for allowing stupid rules like not reporting molestation in a state that does not require it, etc., and upon their right-hand men who advised them in a most reprehensible way. I’m going to start a new thread addressed to you, Sola Scriptura, and paste the words of my lecture there. It was a 45 minute lecture, so be prepared for a long read.
Barbara
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AllTimeJeff
I think that all the elders, “liberal or conservative” except maybe you and some of your friends, are way out of their league coping, handling or managing such awful societal problems as child sexual abuse and any other crime or complex human problem.
This is very balanced, and may I say, 100% correct imo. On the cases that I handled or discussed with fellow elders, at best there was that shaking of the head, sharing disgust. But the discussion was always on letters received from the Society first. We all knew we didn't know what we were doing.
The majority of posters on this thread and I agree that it’s the stupid system that WT created that is to blame. They created some monsters by giving untrained and, for the most part, uneducated men, who became arrogantly humble, ambiguous rules and requirements to follow and then blamed these men for not getting it right.
It's absolutely the GB's fault. They give letters, to be superceded, ammended, or outright ignored when they receive instructions over the phone from the Service Dept. (thought the accompanying letter will have little to no reference of that phone call, for obvious reasons)
Plus, at the top of the stupid system, more uneducated men, who love their religious fantasies, believed that nobody who became a JW elder could be an active pedophile if he was repentant. That nobody who went out in field service, conducted Bible Studies, attended all congregation meetings, and showed by their deeds that they loved Jehovah, would harm a child. They even foolishly believed that any wrongdoing a person did before baptism would not be repeated because the “truth” changed his/her life.
Yup! Couldn't agree more, and its sad the result of the naivete displayed by the GB in this regard.
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Spike Tassel
following up ATJ's observations as a former elder, does anyone here know: has the MTS helped the BOEs know what they're doing (better), in the last several years?
to Chris (a.k.a. Big Tex):— Whether as a "JW" or now (as a "Jw"), I freely admit to any mistakes I make or have made (to the relevant parties, of course). I don't believe in hiding under the skirts of an Org, but take personal responsibility for my thoughts, actions, and omissions. Your posts are part of the reason that (for me) someone calling themself or someone else an "apostate" is not enough to stop interacting with that one. Responding to the topic, or favourable comments to particular posters (such as yourself) sure beat sniping at someone, I agree completely. I believe good manners and respect are always in order, even if we're "having a bad day". To me, that's no excuse, and I appreciate your efforts, Chris, acknowledging your present learning curve to get back to the "high ground". Keep up the good work, bro.
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Spike Tassel
to jookbeard:— MY "loving brethren" are always respect, never snide or looking-down-the nose. I have no need to QUESTION "lies" or "filth". I simply STATE "truth" in contrast to the "lies"; and "get out my scrub-brush, soap, and water" and APPLY ELBOW-GREASE when I see "filth" that needs to be cleaned up. I don't wait for permission. The air clears of the stinky odour faster that way.
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AllTimeJeff
following up ATJ's observations as a former elder, does anyone here know: has the MTS helped the BOEs know what they're doing (better), in the last several years?
No. If anything, MTS influence creates a more hardline, JW conservative stance towards the issue of pedophilia within the congregation.
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Spike Tassel
and what could "a more hardline, JW conservative stance towards the issue of pedophilia" mean, in light of the positive changes that Sola Scriptura and others have mentioned?
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AllTimeJeff
As long as MTS elders are taught to go and call the Legal Dept at Bethel first upon hearing of an allegation of child molestation (which is still the case) instead of the police, then they are consevative and haven't changed a bit.
Calling the Legal Dept of Bethel first both symbollically and practically puts the needs of the JW organization ahead of the moral obligations that lie upon people to protect children. The children are put 2nd, always, to the needs of the organization.