AMAZING - Exposing Elders (re: Expose Ave...

by AMNESIAN 126 Replies latest jw friends

  • JT
    JT

    Just how long do think the society would last, if every sensible elder up and quit the dishonesty?

    ----------

    you make it seem as if EVERY SINGLE ELDER IS AWARE OF how the system works

    i think of all the black elders i knew growing up - many didn't finish hs who were about as informed on the inner workings of the org as my big toe

    all they knew was they had to keep the friends out in service

    ask them to explain a deep bible text or explain why one can or cannot accept certain types of blood fractions they wouldn't be any more able to explain it than the avg publisher

    all you have is some old black bro who always showed up for field service and they made him an elder since they liked him

    as for as knowing many times he was as in the dark as many of the pub

    ---------------

    I supported the wt system with all my might and strength and dealt with fellow bro as kindly as i could, but - I tell my wife all the time if i had to chose between you , my mama and the org

    the two of you would lose- why CAUSE I BELIEVED THAT THE ORG SPOKE FOR GOD-

    of course now that i have taken to time to look into things WITH AN OPEN MIND- YK is a perfect example he has all the facts but his mind is closed-
    now i realize that i was supporting nothing more than an American Corp masquarading around as the mouthpc of god-

    but when i realized what so many have before me i got the He!! with my wife, fatherinlaw and my mama on the way

    What i find so funny about this whole post is we are all out and moving on with our lives and now we all want to play percentage games

    well if it gets you thru your day - cool

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    I think that some people are focusing way too much on narrow points of view and failing to look at the big picture. And of course the usual talking past each other is happening, too.

    Apparently some people want to establish a hierarchy of responsibility within the JW organization, of who is the most to blame for all that is wrong. That's easy, because it follows Watchtower-established lines of corporate responsibility: Governing Body, Assistants to Governing Body, various "Bethel heavies", various "Bethel" midweights, District Overseers, Circuit Overseers, Elders, Ministerial Servants, various Bethel rank & file, congregation rank & file. But so what? The fact is that everyone who willingly bought into the system has a measure of responsibility for upholding it. That responsibility does not lessen until an individual has left the JW organization and, better, made some amends.

    Given the above list, I think it's rather pointless to argue about whether elders have more blame for maintaining the JW system: Of course elders have more responsibility -- it's their "spirit-appointed" job!

    Does that lessen the responsibility that rank & file JWs have? Not a bit. The Society's practice in the past, and currently in places where there is a short supply of "qualified men" to serve as elders, proves that it is not just elders, but the entire JW community, from the top to the bottom, that supports the nastiness of the organization. Where mature men are not available, very young men are given the responsibilities, and sometimes even the title, of elders. Where not even young men are available, women are given those responsibilities. Such women give talks, lead in field service, give counsel, and so forth -- all with their heads covered -- exactly as elders do, but without the formal title.

    So if all of the elders in the world today resigned, Watchtower leaders would quickly move to appoint any willing people, male or female, of the rank & file, to take over their responsibilities. It seems obvious that without the soldiers, the generals couldn't fight a war, and without generals, the soldiers would not be nearly as effective.

    I've seen how this appointment works in practice. In the late 1950s my father was a Congregation Servant and was appointed to help straighten out a congregation that was led by a bunch of bumblers. The original CS was removed and my father was put in his place by direct order from Bethel. My mother was given the responsibility of Literature Servant for several years, although she never held the formal title, and she stopped that only when some man seemed responsible enough to take over. I recently received the story of a young man who became a JW in Russia some years ago. Seems his mother latched onto the JWs in a small, rural village and raised her kids as JWs. There were no men in the small congregation, so the women did everything necessary to keep the congregation running. They wore "babushkas" (scarves) on their heads whenever they did what males normally did. When this young man reached about 17 he was given a lot of responsibility, and within a couple of years he was virtually running the congregation by virtue of being the only "qualified" male. Women still did some of the congregational chores.

    Was my mother -- officially only a member of the rank & file, not a "Servant", because she's female -- any more or less responsible for upholding the JW system when she was the unofficial Literature Servant than any Elder or Ministerial Servant today who does the same job? I don't think so. Are those Russian women with the babushkas any more or less responsible for upholding the JW system than males who are elders and do the same jobs? I don't think so.

    Think back to when you "made your dedication" to God and got baptized. Assuming this was after you were old enough to think a bit for yourself, was not each and every one of us fully convinced that the JW organization was truly God's, and that we were obeying God when we obeyed organizational directives? If circumstances demanded it, wouldn't all of us -- male or female -- have stepped in and taken over whatever responsibilities that "Jehovah through his organization" might have handed to us? If we wouldn't, we certainly weren't JWs in the sense that the organization demanded of us.

    I never served as an elder (never wanted the responsibility of telling anyone else what to do) but I certainly remember one struggle I had which resulted for awhile in my prostituting my mind to the JW dream. At about 21 years old I nearly quit, and told my parents that I was going to quit. They had a fit and told me that if I quit the JWs, I would have to leave home. Given my complete lack of job skills -- courtesy of the Society -- I was forced to choose between living on my own in New York with a minimum wage job and living in a nice, comfortable home with nice food etc. I chose comfort, and agreed to a Bible study with a guy a few years older than me. I remember going through all the simplistic stuff and not really believing some of it, but deciding to put my disbelief out of my mind and try to "get the big picture" as is usually told to people whose doubts cannot be assuaged. Gradually I got back into the usual JW community life, which of course included going out in field service and deceiving the public, participating in the shunning of the disfellowshipped, giving talks I didn't completely believe in before the congregation, and so forth.

    Was I a willing participant in the system of JW deception? You better believe it! I made choices -- limited ones, certainly, and perhaps not very good ones -- but they were my own choices. I may have been deceived about some things, but not about everything.

    That, I think, is something that almost everyone who becomes a JW goes through -- realizing that some things are wrong with the JW system but buying into it anyway. I don't think that a single participant on this board will claim that he or she was completely deceived, but will admit that they deliberately suppressed some misgivings. Why suppress misgivings? For any number of reasons. Some were practical, and like mine, in hindsight, made mainly for selfish reasons. Others were to be able to hang on to the wonderful fairy tale at the center of JW aspirations -- the resurrection, life forever in paradise, and so forth. And of course, we worked very hard to convince ourselves that whatever we did was not really just for our own reasons, but for love of Jehovah and Jesus and the JW organization. In the larger view, what most of us did was exactly what everyone else does who joins a cult. It's a combination of deceit on the part of the teachers and a clear willingness to be deceived on the part of the student. And because students become teachers in proselytizing cults, after awhile its hard to distinguish between students and teachers.

    I would like to know of anyone on this board who does not recall some point in his or her acceptance of JW teaching where they deliberately prostituted their mind to the Society, just as I did. Maybe it's in the back of your mind, but I'm certain that if you dig enough, you can remember the exact moment when you decided to forget about certain problems and just accept everything you were taught thereafter.

    As a JW publisher, when we conducted Bible studies we instructed our students to view and obey the Society just as we would view and obey God. We were horrified if anyone dared to suggest that elders or any other Watchtower appointees were screwing up. If they persisted, we ourselves determined that such people were "apostates", simply because that is what we were trained to do. Some of us reported our own relatives, some of us shunned others, and we did other things we're not proud of, just because that's what we were trained to believe was "Jehovah's will".

    How were we trained? By Watchtower publications, meetings, private study and especially by acculturation into the JW social community. We learned to display certain attitudes towards non-JWs, and towards anything that contradicted Watchtower teaching, and eventually we made those attitudes "our own".

    This is the power of a cult -- to be able to convince a group of people that a leader or group of leaders is to be given the ultimate in obedience and respect. Because it takes a full complement of cult members, from the leaders down to the lowest of the rank & file, to make a cult, all share in responsibility for the cult's excesses. The leaders have the biggest burden of blame, followed by their lieutenants, followed by the rank & file. None are without blame because, as I described above, nearly all have willingly bought into the cult somewhere along the line.

    I myself am very sorry for any influence I had on others to join the JW cult. I wish I could go back and undo it. Had I been an elder, I'd be a lot sorrier still, since they're truly the "front men" for the Society.

    Elders are really between a rock and a hard place. Those who truly believe that they're doing God's will must often suppress their consciences and do exactly what the Society says. If they don't, they're immediately removed. When elders -- and this especially includes elders who "serve" at Bethel in any capacity -- prostitute their consciences like this, they eventually have no consciences at all. People in responsible positions at Bethel have all had to do this, and so it seems to me that it's the rare career Bethelite who really has a conscience anymore. Elders "in the field" don't see as much dirt, so it takes longer for them to lose their consciences. To me, this willingness to sacrifice a good conscience in order to stay with a Christian cult is the biggest dereliction of duty of all. It's a betrayal not only of the religious principles they claim to love, but of basic principles of good human conduct. While this is demonstrably demanded of and practiced by nearly all elders, it's also demanded in principle of the rank & file, and is practiced by whomever of the rank & file it is demanded in practice.

    AlanF

  • Tina
    Tina

    well Jt,
    As in the legal world it happens to be about percentages. No matter how ya wanna swing it.
    For example,the LEGAL definiton of 'comparative negligence 'states='negligence among multiple parties in an injury or situation that is measured in PERCENTAGES according to the degree of its contribution to injury....' this is how the average educated individual understands it to be. All the WTS dancin and weaseling doesn't change that.

    Please excuse we lowly rank and file for expecting honesty and integrity amongst the men that 'were given to us as gifts'...who were to be refreshing,blah blah blah. And who now wanna blow it off and throw it ALL on the rank and file.

    what ever helps you guys sleep at night.T

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

  • JT
    JT

    Tina thanks for the legal stuff

    like i stated if you guys want to argue about your former lives- cool

    that why i love this NET "THANG"

  • teejay
    teejay

    JT,

    One question, if you would be so kind as to answer it.

    You related that an elder had not been keeping up with new light and was about to convene a committee because someone had found a donor. Suppose you and the other more informed brother had not stepped in. Further, suppose Brother Behind-on-his-reading had hooked up with a couple of other equally clueless elders and ended up disfellowshipping the one in need of the organ transplant.

    Here's my question: would the three elders who presided over the disfellowshipping be accountable for the wrong they committed and by complying with the df'ing, would the df'd publisher be equally accountable?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    I myself am very sorry for any influence I had on others to join the JW cult. I wish I could go back and undo it. Had I been an elder, I'd be a lot sorrier still, since they're truly the "front men" for the Society.

    Thank you, Alan.

    Again, in a nutshell, you say what Amnesian said. Some are trying to make it seem as though it is being said that only publishers were victims... that the elders, to a man, all knew exactly what was going on all the time in victimizing their brothers. No one has said that. It's just a fact that elders have more control in the cong, more influence, a greater impact and thus a greater level of accountability.

    One of my biggest, most tragic regrets is that I shunned my own df'd sister for many years. I followed WTS directives. That doesn't mean I am a bad person, that I need to be stoned, or anything of the kind. I was a believer and did I thought god wanted me to do. That doesn't alter the fact that it hurt my sister, her husband, her sons, and me. For that I am accountable.

    In time, I learned that the Society's policy was not only unscriptural but plain evil, so I stopped the practice. Eventually Id speak to df'd people even AT THE KINGDOM HALL. My accountability ended when my wrong behavior ended. Still, that does not erase the wrongs I committed in the past over this issue.

    Why that simple fact is so hard for some to see is amazing.

  • Tina
    Tina

    ((((((jt&Mrs)))))))))I really luv you guys!
    It's not about blame or judging hun,not at all. It's just an ugly fact about our former lives. I actually feel how it must be for ex elders to have to realize how awful the game truly was.
    Anyways,you havent called me 'sick' in along time lol.(since my lst fredhall joke lol) Im gonna have to fix that!! Happy New year!!luv,T

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Cut and paste not working too well! Lost the first intended post but here's another one. Here goes again:

    :::In the larger view, what most of us did was exactly what everyone else does who joins a cult. It's a combination of deceit on the part of the teachers and a clear willingness to be deceived on the part of the student. And because students become teachers in proselytizing cults, after awhile its hard to distinguish between students and teachers.::: -AlanF

    I think that summarizes it very nicely.

    ::: I would like to know of anyone on this board who does not recall some point in his or her acceptance of JW teaching where they deliberately prostituted their mind to the Society, just as I did. :::

    Ouch! Yes, I know I did.

    ----------------

    ::: One of my biggest, most tragic regrets is that I shunned my own df'd sister for many years. I followed WTS directives. That doesn't mean I am a bad person, that I need to be stoned, or anything of the kind. I was a believer and did I thought god wanted me to do. That doesn't alter the fact that it hurt my sister, her husband, her sons, and me. For that I am accountable. ::: --TeeJay

    I don’t think there is any elder or former elder here with no regrets and all of them can say what you just said above: “I followed WTS directives.” And like you, that doesn’t make them a ‘bad person’ that needs to be stoned. Like you we were believers and did what we “thought God wanted us to do”. And, just like in your case, it doesn’t alter the fact that we hurt other people in the process. We feel the accountability as well.

    I am not trying to absolve my accountability but merely wish to point out that ALL in the congregation are accountable and UNTIL and UNLESS a person realizes this he will remain a victim.

  • thewiz
    thewiz

    Eve set her down to her own thoughts and look where we are today.
    Thanks to a woman kind all my kids are gonna die. But then again it's because Adam didn't have the balls to stand up to his wife. So we are here today in this spot beacause of beaten pussy-whipped Adam.

    Ever ask yourself why a perfect women didn't have to die up there on a cross/stake too? because ALL human life comes from one person, Adam. Eve was a perfect life too, which was lost. It's because it didn't matter. Perfection was dependent on the life giver, which was Adam. Jesus became our life giver with his sacrifice. Eve got her life from Adam -his rib (as the story goes).

    Children respect their parents because they got their life from them, women respect men/husbands because it goes back for the respect of that first life giving incident. It's the order of things. It doesn't mean one is less than the other.

    People have to get out of this mentality of 1'st 2'nd and 3'rd place as regards whether a person is male or female, black or white, rich or poor. When your talking about humans you are talking about a different level.

    God came first because he's the ultimate authority. Jesus came next because he is GOD's appointed authority. Then you have the angels.

    For earth you have Adam then Eve, then everybody else, then the animals. Just because a man was left in "charge" so-to-speak doesn't make a woman's role any less vital or less in value.

    One of my favorite quotes that have to do with worshipping God is one from Les Miserable. Sir Guilliment says of his nephew Marius' love for Cosette, "If a man wants to worship God, let him love his wife."

    Man cannot worship God if he does not love his wife.

  • JT
    JT

    jedi asked:

    Further, suppose Brother Behind-on-his-reading had hooked up with a couple of other equally clueless elders and ended up disfellowshipping the one in need of the organ transplant.

    Here's my question: would the three elders who presided over the disfellowshipping be accountable for the wrong they committed and by complying with the df'ing, would the df'd publisher be equally accountable

    ---------excellent question for this highlights the problem-

    yes those clowns would be responible and so would any person who allowed a mate or child to die for fear of being DFed by these clowns

    thruout the world persons who believe in the STSTEM submit themselves to clowns like this everyday and why? yes why? would a man or woman allow 3 dudes to tell them let your wife or child die UNLESS they believed in the System

    go across the street and ask the guy next door to you who is not a jw would he allow 3 guys with a 5th grade education and who work as night office cleaners to tell him to let his wife die

    you and i along with millions would do it in a heart beat and why
    CAUSE WE BELIEVED THESE CLOWNS SPOKE FOR GOD--

    I AGREE that elders play a major role but the bottom line is -THE SYSTEM

    sometime when i tell nonjw the stuff we believed they look at me and say " James I know that you didn't believe that foolishness"

    yet many of us believed it with all our heart

    ray put it best in his book the ENTIRE SUPER-STRUCTURE upon which WT is built is the problem from the hours, 5 meetings, all that foolishness we had to read and keep up on- it's kangroo court system called a "Judical committee " and the list goes on and on
    and the only reason any of this foolishness worked is because from the youngest child to the oldest fool believed that THE SYSTEM was god ordained

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    ::: To even suggest that the 'average' jw is just as culpable as an 'elder' of any sort, is like saying Jim Jones had little if anything to do with those hundreds who drank the kool aid. ::: Danny

    I’m sorry but I don’t see it that way. It was Jim Jone’s idea to make that fatal concoction and he is the one that convinced his followers to drink it. The elders don’t make the brew and are every bit as much the victims of it’s effects as those who partake it with them. Remember that they also drink of the cup which they pass on.

    ::: Or, the private first class is just as culpable as the brass, who ordered him to fire up the oven's in Nazi Germany.:::

    Did the private not know he was doing wrong? Then why is he excused from his act? Why is it that it’s only those at the lowest level, the ones that actually carry out the command, that are never to blame? If those privates had walked into the ovens as well THEN and only then would they not be accountable. Elders walk into the oven every day with the R&F.

    ::: No, in my minds eye, you cannot ascribe blame or responsibility to the 'average' jw, they simply are doing what they are told. :::

    Elders are doing nothing more or less than doing what they are told. BTW, do Ministerial Servants get mentioned here? I don’t recall anyone saying anything about them. Are they to be lumped with the ‘average JW’ or with the elders? What about elders’ wives, they know more than the ‘average JW’ wife, does that make them more to blame? The children of elders?

    ::: Face it Frenchy, we who enforced the sanctions, did the bidding of the fds, should shoulder most if not all of the blame, for keeping the whole nasty business going. :::

    We who enforced the sanctions were victims, Danny. We may feel especially responsible for the perpetuation of a corrupt system of belief but that’s just our conscience whipping us. The Society went to great lengths to make us feel personally responsible, as shepherds, to the flock. The truth of the matter is that we were never the shepherds, and they never were our sheep. They belong to the Society and we were merely the proxy by which the Society ruled. If you think that your ‘brothers and sisters’ only stayed because of you, try going to them now and telling them what you know and see if they’ll leave. See if they’ll just go home. It wasn't you and it wasn't me. Whoever stays must accept the responsibilty for their action and their concscience must accuse or excuse them.

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