Ginny,
This could be Watchtower rhetoric, Teejay. You've told me that your assertions are "beyond question," that there's "no escaping these facts," that it must be "reasonably concluded," and that suggesting otherwise is "ludicrous," but you have offered no evidence to support your point.
Sorry for the rhetoric. Been reading too much around here. I'll cut to the chase.
Elders are the grease that moves the org. As Danny said below, if all of the elders who have what remained of a good conscience decided to leave, the org. would fold tomorrow. Elders are responsible for setting the tone of the entire cong. They 'teach': (public talks, what they consider "special needs" & assembly parts, etc.). Depending on the elder and his current agenda, he can box a 'rebellious' person or even family into a corner and more or less FORCE them to comply with the rules. In the judicial process, their power over people (and the likelihood of permanent harm) is clearest. Said simply, no publisher can influence as many people or as strongly as the average elder. Those who try to deny this simple fact is either delusional or worse.
Are those who exercise unconventional beliefs and behaviors smacked down only by elders? Are they not also smacked down by their Watchtower-trained conscience and by peer pressure?
Both. Yet, have you never known of publishers who found it within their conscience to, let's say, allow their kid to go to college (despite all of the words in all of the Watchtowers) but were coerced to comply only because of the lead the elders took in causing tons of grief for the kid and his family? And I'd prefer anyone not say that in this case it was the parent's "trained conscience" that molded his/her behavior. That is a lie. Neither is it true to call it "peer pressure" because one's peers are under the same exact pressure to comply.
The parent uses a tool to inflict pain on the child. Are elders a tool or are they doing the swinging?
How much harm could a belt inflict on its own without someone wielding it? The rules are there, sure, but elders always have the option of turning a blind eye and letting people live as they see fit, regardless of what a magazine says. If he makes that a habit, however, he won't hold his position long and he knows it. He'd rather keep his position with its perks than do the right thing. This brings us right back to the influence he wields to make sure that a)the cong is ship-shape, and b) he keeps his position.
I can only speak from my personal experience. The choices I made in the areas you mention were influenced more by reading Watchtower literature and peer pressure than by fear of elders. No local elders ever interfered in these aspects of my life.
Elders decided what articles were written; wrote the articles; emphasized the main points of the articles you read; in various ways punnished those who didn't comply. The influence of elders was all around you... you were just never aware of it. Trust me.
After giving my answer to whether elders are able to mentally process what they know? Are they truly aware? Are they thinking clearly or has their thinking been clouded by their beliefs? you said: "I remember how my mind worked as a JW, and I am extremely reluctant to judge anyone for the same distorted thinking I once had myself."
Same here. I can't say whether there are men out there who came to the same understanding as, let's say, Bill did of the Wt's pedo policy. Of the thousands that are out there, tho, I'd guess there were SOME who remain elders. If I'm right, what would be their reasoning for staying in such a corrupt organization? Whatever the reason, that man would be under a serious moral obligation to do everything he possibly could to right every wrong he encountered from that point on whatever it was. Do some do that? Who knows.
Without knowing why a man continues to be an elder, I will not judge him just because he is an elder.
Same here. Please don't attempt to change the focus and nature of this debate in mid-stream. No one here is "judging" anyone. I'm not and no one is saying you are, either. In a nutshell, we're simply discussing whether in the congregation elders bear more accountability for the harms that come to people than publishers. I think the argument that the accountability factor is equal is false, if not outright disingenuous.
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Thought I'd pop in to assure that I have in no way abandoned this topic. I am periodically checking in here and carefully following the thoughtful reasoning and considering each and every comment... I will offer my own further and final input at some point in the future.[/I]
Hey, stay outta this, Lady! We got a discussion goin' on here!!!
