AMAZING - Exposing Elders (re: Expose Ave... (page 12)

termite 35

HI; nothing much! just wondering if thr bloke who crapped up my life for a while is watching this board and wondering when i'm going to spill some more beans about him and ruin his reputation...vengence desperately required at this end i'm afraid!Did'nt mean to spoil your thread ;carry on sweetheartxxx

Seeker

Say, this is some thread, huh? I didn't read past the second page, but I had to say one thing to Amnesian: That was one of the clearest, best-written, most thorough, honest, perceptive posts I've had the privilege to read on this site. Thanks for making my day.

Tina

wasn't it seek? lol
Only prob here is it's causin fallout from old pals who see the truth and the ones that defend this bullshit. I agree spot on,luv,T

teejay

Seeker, my friend, my friend....

You don't know the half of the story...

Tina

Ginny luv,show me where I was a liar-dont think ya can,even amazing couldnt back up that busllshit.
Iall the rhetoric and excusogenics aintgonna make him anything more than the blowhard he is.

waiting

Howdy Ginny,

I was on vaction when you presented your percentages. Then didn't follow your click. I have now...fascinating information!

.. http://www.habitsmart.com/pin.html

EMOTIONS: How do you feel? Some people confuse feelings for thoughts. They may say, I feel ripped off! In actuality, "ripped off" is not a feeling, it is a belief. How do you feel about being ripped off? Angry? Sad? Then rate your emotion on a scale of 0-100% (0=no negative emotion, 100=the most intense this negative emotion can be experienced). It is useful to create your own mood ruler by thinking about events in your past which have been associated with different percentages of the negative mood and compare current mood states to these events for accurate gauging. For example, 0% depression might be likened to a honeymoon, 25% to normal hassles of the day, like waiting in line, 50% to an extreme argument with a close friend, 75% with losing, 100% with the dissolution of a marriage

Of course, those who've have more psych credits than I have should be able to identify the applicable information. There's so much information in those pages! - and much of it is applicable to this discussion.

Thanks for the click - and your comments.

waiting

Hmmm

It's a bit cold outside, and I'm watching the playoffs on TV, but I feel an uncontrollable urge to take my life into my own hands today. So I'm going to post to this thread instead of walking in dangerous neighborhoods or skydiving with a tattered parachute.

I think most of this discussion has gotten way off track. Amnesian's original post was that she blames elders who K-N-O-W they no longer serve the r&f witnesses, and holds them responsible for any and every damaging word or deed after that point.

To me this doesn’t mean they are simply aware of the infamous “poopy” list, but that they knew about those things AND K-N-O-W that Jehovah is NOT going to take care of it. Not that they don’t have issues with one or more specific doctrines, but that they are convinced that it is NOT Jehovah’s Organization at all.

I agree with a couple of other posters, who said that the number of elders who K-N-O-W this is probably very small. Most don’t question, and those that do, are in various stages of doubt; they don’t K-N-O-W it’s all hogwash.

But what about those (arguably) few that do K-N-O-W? Is it inexcusable that they would stay in their position, ostensibly to lighten the burden carried by the R&F? I don’t think so, and it was an illustration used by someone else which led me to this conclusion. I can’t remember for sure who said it, and I have neither the time nor inclination to search through 37 different threads to find it, but I think it was Amnesian. She said (paraphrasing): ‘It is no excuse that they say they want to lessen the harm caused by a corrupt system. They still hold the whip, does it matter that they would deliver fewer strokes, or swing with less force?’

To me, it absolutely does matter. If I were a slave in ancient Israel who was starving and got caught eating the master’s grapes, I sure as hell would want the guy whipping me to be someone who felt some compassion for me. Maybe he is against slavery in general, or maybe he feels it is the master’s fault for not feeding me properly. Whatever his motivation, I want my “forty strokes less one” coming from a guy who is trying to work from within the system to help my plight, not some gung-ho martinet who wants to impress the master with how quickly he can make me bleed. THE SYSTEM dictates that I will be receiving my strokes, whether the compassionate foreman is there or not, so I’ll take my beatings from him, thank you very much.

One quote from Amnesian that I was able to find is this:

You see, if every good and conscientious man who decided to remain an elder did so only until he pulled off his one big covert operation that will likely reap huge benefits for lots more JWs worldwide than merely a couple of troubled teen-agers and one elderly and ill sister or two in his own congregation, I’d be in their cheering section. You and I both know that is not only rarely the case, it is virtually never the case, which is why “Silentlambs” and “Lee Elder” are receiving well-deserved backslaps.
These type men do more to raise questions in the minds of sincere JWs than any man does who sits on some JC in some remote congregation of 55 publishers in French Lick, Indiana “compassionately” voting to publicly reprove instead of df Brother Filtertip Marlborough. This French Lick man who remains an elder with the weak justification that he is helping others is trying to have his cake and eat it, too. He gets to continue enjoying the perks of being an elder and yet be thought of by the vulnerable and needy sheep as “the good elder” all the while accomplishing nothing nobler than perpetuating the myth that the WTS is God’s organization, with just a few rotten apples that Jehovah is using just to test our faithfulness…”
<insert audio file: “projectile vomitous emitus.wav”>

[emphasis added, but the quotes around “compassionately” are original]
What if an elder who has come to reject all of the society’s claims of inspiration, but who has not stepped down, is called to sit on the JC of Amnesian’s brother Filtertip Lowtar Marlborough, of French Lick, Indiana. Well, I happen to know brother Marlborough. Let me tell you a little about him that Amnesian wasn’t aware of. He has been struggling to beat smoking for years, but hasn’t been able to kick this habit, which so defiles his temple. Filtertip is distraught, now that his worst nightmare has finally come true… he’s been caught lighting up.

He knows it’s a grievous sin, but his weak flesh controls him in this aspect. He also knows that the end of this system is close, so he wouldn’t have time to be reinstated, and he couldn’t live with the humiliation and pain of being shunned. Therefore, he has purchased a gun and has determined to end his own life (saving Jehovah the trouble) if the elders decide to disfellowship him. But since this elder who K-N-O-W-S that it’s not the truth remained an elder and sat on the JC, this brother-on-the-brink was reproved instead of disfellowshipped. At this point, who cares if he ever realizes it’s all a sham, and leaves the organization? What’s important is that he is alive to sell magazines or not.

Or what about the older ill (and therefore disposable?) sister who starts expressing doubts? What if this K-N-O-W-I-N-G brother is assigned the local needs part, encouraging the flock to lean on Jehovah, but he is much less harsh, condescending, and dogmatic than one of the true-believing elders would have been--and even privately tells the sister that she should keep her research private, allowing her to stay below the radar until she decides how she wants to proceed? If he can lessen (while not totally alleviating) the confusion and guilt she feels, was it worth it for him to stay on as an elder? Or is she so inconsequential that she’s an acceptable casualty to some grand gesture?

I suspect that even in a group made primarily of Ex-JWs we could find a few “troubled teens” who were taken under the wing of a good and conscientious elder. Maybe that elder kept the young brother or sister sane enough that they didn’t hit the streets as a teen. Maybe he helped them maintain a modicum of self-esteem, which indirectly and years later, gave them the strength to buck the flow and question their beliefs. Maybe?

Later in that post, Amnesian says the following in response to Amazing’s comment about having a gun put to his head :

About your being confronted with a literal gun: I certainly don’t mean to minimize your trauma, but if you think there is no difference between having a literal gun held to your head and having the df gun held to it, might I suggest that you interview victims of the former and the suicided victims of the latter and report back which you determine to be the better or worse off.
Or, more to the point, why not try talking to some who are df’d and shunned who cannot bring themselves to suicide and so are condemned to continue lives rotted out by this policy? I wonder if too many of them might wish that someone would sneak up behind them and put a bullet through their skulls.
My sense is that most df’d victims are not of the hale and hearty, resilient constitution of those who post their happily-ever-after testimonials here on JWD. Many, too many, suffer indescribably in spite of getting on with life. Physical death is not the worst consequence one can suffer, or have you discarded that teaching from your JW days?

This seems incongruous. Are individual members (like troubled teens and elderly sisters) worth saving or not? Amnesian uses the word “merely” to describe them, then says that DFing can be a fate worse than death. I’m not trying to twist her words; I think it’s a valid question. She say that some are so miserable after being DFed that they might wish for someone to sneak up behind them and shoot them, yet she’s ready to issue a blanket condemnation of a good and conscientious brother who wishes to stay in his position to help such ones, unwilling to ascribe any good motives to his doing so?

Anyway, back to this good and conscientious elder. If he doesn’t grasp after or abuse the magnificent Ps, but accepts them as coming with the territory, does that negate what good he is able to do?

On the other hand, I don’t think we can deny that the “good” elders unwittingly help ‘perpetuate the myth that the WTS is God’s organization, with just a few rotten apples that Jehovah is using just to test our faithfulness.’ I’ve seen a few say that there is no excuse for them to stay in their positions, and the arguments of some seem to have been construed to say that they should be completely absolved of blame. Isn’t it possible and probable that the truth lies somewhere in between?

Still, I believe that the number of elders who K-N-O-W it’s all a lie is pretty small (but that’s another argument). Regardless of the number, even if all brothers who K-N-O-W were to step down, there would still be plenty of clueless “good” brothers to help R&F keep up their own precious illusions.

“Their precious illusions?” I don’t think this illusion is being created by elders for[ the R&F. It’s an illusion created by the Borg, and elders and publishers alike buy into their respective roles.

I can’t personally absolve myself of the blame for participating in the group. I knew then that I was smarter than my elders. My raw intellect and reasoning abilities were sharper. [Wow that sounds arrogant, but to paraphrase Tedd Williams, “it aint braggin’ if it’s true.”] It would be disingenuous of me to jump up and scream to the elders “Why did you not protect me from my own gullibility?” Sure, some of them had the advantage of 30 more years in the system than I, but that doesn’t mean that they weren’t still blissfully ignorant of what was really going on.

If any of them had secretly decided it was all bunk, I certainly I wish they would have told me. But I think if I’m honest with myself I’d have to say that I would have ignored them at best, and narced on them at worst. This is because the vast majority of us, no matter how smart we style ourselves will not leave until we are ready to leave. I think the real blame lies with THE SYSTEM.

When I was indoctrinated, I knew about much of the “doody” list from the “culpability” threads. Elders rarely talked to me about private judicial matters, but I heard the details/rumors from the other Pioneers (elder’s wives). I knew very well that there were miscarriages of justice, and that an appeal was a joke, but I waited on Jehovah to Straighten Things Out. I knew there was a “Flock” book, but thought it was just mundane administrative stuff. I knew about the Society’s history, but was grateful for the New Light. I saw the news expose about the Society helping a sister win custody of her kids in an ugly court battle, and railed at how apostates had twisted matters, painting the Society in a bad light. I can’t in all honesty say that knowing everything the average elder knows would have caused me to leave any sooner than I did. Maybe, maybe not.

To me, the crux of the matter is “now what?” Should these (few) elders who remain landed be absolved of all culpability? I think they need to realize that they do help perpetuate the myth that all elders are appointed/anointed by God, but what next?

Amnesian seems to give some clue as to what she thinks should come next:

Neither [the trusting publisher, nor the all-knowing elder] is in a position to protest his innocence too vociferously, yet there are degrees of guilt that carry varying penalties.

What are the penalties? Should we force remaining elders to resign? Should the penalties be commensurate with lives destroyed, years spent as an elder, years spent K-N-O-W-I-N-G? Should elders who stayed for a while, then left, be treated differently from elders we (the underground, the rebellion?) had to expose as staying on for the Ps? Should we start with the current ex-elders in the JWD community? What form of solitary confinement can we impose for those on JWD who show signs of “elder influence”? Who will be Judge, Jury, and Executioner? Should ex-elders get credit for time served if they can prove that they did things to mitigate their harm done?

Oops, Amnesian answers this one:

You may be doing some courageous things now---and I heartily applaud you for that---, but they don’t, as you suppose, acquit you of your past crimes.

The question still remains, what is to be his, and his compatriots’, punishment?

For those of us who were never elders, is our bloodlust so great now that we would rob those still inside of the relative relief that comes from only having three heartless elders, instead of four? (My premise is that a K-N-O-W-I-N-G elder who steps down WILL be replaced. A massive walkout of “good” elders won’t cripple the society, they’d just reach lower into the barrel for their candidates.)

A couple more finishing thoughts, then I’m going to go pack my parachute.

Teejay, twice in one of your posts, you said that this subject was very important. My question is, “Is it really?” Is it important to current JWs? Many, including myself, have loved ones still on the inside. Is it for them that we need to settle this matter of culpability? That would include forcing acting elders to kamikaze themselves. Would that help our loved ones? If these “good” elders (who are actually bad for sitting on their knowledge) go public, how many of our loved ones will listen? How many of them are ready to leave? I’m sure some are, so how do we weigh them against the “mere” troubled teens and old, ill sisters? I’m sure glad it’s not my decision. I guess I see what others were saying about this not being a black/white issue.

Or is it important to the Ex-JW community? Which is more important, getting the ex-elders among us to repent in ashes and sackcloth, or is it the active elders that the ex-JW community is more interested in bringing to justice?

Then again, since this was just a human behavior test being conducted, I guess we who wasted so much time engaging in it should feel pretty stupid.

[Edit: Sheesh, a gazillion proof-reads before posting, and grammar no-nos still slipped through]

teejay

Teejay, twice in one of your posts, you said that this subject was very important. My question is, “Is it really?” Is it important to current JWs?

Or is it important to the Ex-JW community?

Then again, since this was just a human behavior test being conducted, I guess we who wasted so much time engaging in it should feel pretty stupid.

Hmmm,

What difference does it make?

After more than 2,500 words (I had Microsoft do the counting), that's the point I got from your post. I ask the exact same question every time I need to wash my pickup: "Why, since it's only going to get dirty again?" (I drive a dirty $30,000 pickup. Haven't washed it in months. We all have our priorities.)

Ultimately, this debate (or my clean/dirty truck) doesn't matter. Just like every other discussion that's going on right now, either on this board, in the halls of Congress, or before the Judgment Seat of a fictitious deity. In the final analysis, in the end, nothing matters.

I guess it all boils down to what one's perspective is. Like washing your pickup.

Hmmm

In the final analysis, in the end, nothing matters.

Of those “2500 words” exactly 167 were directed specifically to you.

Never mind, I should have known better. It looks like we agree—now.

But this begs the question (this is officially a rhetorical question. I don’t need to know how many letters or pixels are in this post) “why did you change your mind?” I haven’t followed things closely, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this isn’t the first time in your posting history that you’ve changed your mind on a subject. You didn’t come close to saying you were wrong (and it was never my contention that you were) but you completely reversed your position on an issue. That’s more fascinating to me than the rest of the discussion.

And the most ironic thing is… I didn’t even try to change your mind! I asked a question that I had no strong opinion on… like two guys having a beer at the bar, just making conversation. And you changed your mind!

I’ll be honest with you, teejay, just when I thought I’d figured you out pretty well (and I have a decent amount of respect for you—still do) you go and pull the rug out from under me.

Never a dull moment here,
Hmmm

teejay

Hmmm,

I like rhetorical questions. *Everybody* wins that way. I don't have to answer often silly, pointless questions and others can defeat the paper tigers of their own creation and gain a moral victory in the process. (You did address me in your post. I thought you were sincerely addressing me. My mistake. I should have ignored it, I guess. Had I known you were typing out loud with my name on your mind, I would have. Then next time I see my name in one of your posts, I'll know what to do.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a conversation with my JW mother over the Christmas weekend. It was merely another chapter of a ten-year-long discussion we've been having. She said (again): "I just can't understand how you could turn your back on all you were taught all those years. I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT!!"

She said that three or four times, just like that, right in a row. I got tired of her indignation and simply said, "Ma, it's not that hard. You can understand... if you want to. Do you WANT to?"

I have seldom seen the stunned look on her face that I saw right then. She said, "Well.... yeah.... I guess."

Now she understands.

AMAZING - Exposing Elders (re: Expose Ave...

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