AMAZING - Exposing Elders (re: Expose Ave...

by AMNESIAN 126 Replies latest jw friends

  • Julie
    Julie

    Geez Msil, who set your pants on fire? Why are you so bent out of shape over this? Amazing's a big boy, he can certainly handle himself. Besides, you really do Amnesian a discredit here. She went to great lengths (literally) to be diplomatic with Amazing. Most here, myself included, would not likely have gone to so much trouble if so irritated. As to the analysis thing, it's called "rebuttal". You know, here's your words <insert words> now here are mine <insert reply> sort of thing. It's how you have a conversation in writing, over a long period of time. (Of course this often results in one's words coming back to haunt them but that is one way to learn caution, or at least pause-first, eh?)

    Relax. Besides, this Amnesian looks to be a big-league player, don't you think it would be very interesting to see discussion between these two? I do. Unless of course maybe you fear the outcome? Could be, don't know....on the one hand you claim great faith in your friend and his abilities etc. but then again....this longer post of your looks like you are running around with a hunter orange poncho on screaming "No!! Shoot at me instead!!!!"......hard to say....the whole two-message message thing, almost always hard to decipher the *real* message........

    Much rather see debate between these two than read some of the nonsense we get so much of, (Fluffers--you know I love ya but the heavy stuff is good once in a while, eh?)--

    Regards to all, (your friend will be fine Msil--you are a good and loyal friend btw--)
    Julie

  • Julie
    Julie

    ROFL--You're quite the comedien today, eh Teejay? Ok, I'll play along....

    :Compared to Amnesian, you're just a warm, fuzzy-wuzzy teddy bear with a cute nose.

    You got that right. You will want to remember that. Better warn Big and Bear, while you might escape a parapalegic, I don't think they'd see the light of day again....not that I care....

    :You know what I'm-a do? I'm gonna buddy-up with Sister Amnesian and get her to kick your butt so you'll stop pickin' on me. How's that?!!!

    LOL I say "Rots of Ruck". You may have made pals with Wendy but I think Amnesian is no Wendy (who herself admits to being too much of a softie). But hey, if you've got a thing about unachievable goals, who am I to discourage? (Besides what would your other tag-team members say? )

    Regards,
    Julie, who is wondering if someone slipped her a mickey or something with all this palling around with Teejay and crew today.....*looks around suspiciously*

  • teejay
    teejay

    Geez Msil, who set your pants on fire? Why are you so bent out of shape over this? Amazing's a big boy, he can certainly handle himself... Relax... Much rather see debate between these two than read some of the nonsense we get so much of, (Fluffers--you know I love ya but the heavy stuff is good once in a while, eh?)

    Julie,

    I don't know what in the hell is going on around here, but for the first time you made me laugh out loud... and hard... with this. What's up with you? You're not getting soft on me, are you? Not that there's anything wrong with that!!!

    I mean... I was all set to post my usual well-articulated, insightful, humorously provocative post and come to find....

    ... you beat me to the punch on virtually every point. Damn! Especially liked the olive branch you extended to all the fluffers out there. A stroke of genius.
    peace,
    tj ~ who's eagerly awaiting Amazing's rebuttal

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Amazing already posted his rebuttal: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18103&site=3 Frenchy's comments in this thread are what I would love to see a response to.

  • Julie
    Julie

    Hey Teejay,

    :Especially liked the olive branch you extended to all the fluffers out there. A stroke of genius.

    LOL Thanks! I know better than to draw their fire!! It is good for one to know one's limitiations, I know mine.

    Glad you enjoyed the post.

    Julie

    P.S. Teejay, here is Amazing's rebuttal, he made it a seperate post but unfortunately it was what got buried, not this one, so many probably missed it: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18254&site=3

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    I have been thinking over the posts between Amazing and Amnesian for several days. From what I see, the issue at the heart of this is getting muddied by the battle mentality--Amazing vs. Amnesian, elders vs. rank and file, men vs. women, etc.

    After reading the exchanges, my questions are: What harm did I cause while I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Whom did I influence? Whose lives were affected by the way I chose to live my life? How liable am I for the harm caused to others?

    I haven't commented much until now because the questions are difficult ones. I also balk at considering the questions of blame and liability because I consider them rather futile. I would rather work towards cleaning up the damage than on pinpointing blame. At the same time, I know that two of the twelve steps for alcoholics are:

    8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

    9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

    While mulling these questions, I tried to mentally step away from the example of the Watchtower Society and consider corporations in general. When corporations cause damage, who is responsible, liable? If I cause harm to others by my job, who is liable? Me? My supervisor? The company?

    This is not easy to decide. Sometimes corporations are prosecuted; sometimes individuals within companies are prosecuted; sometimes it is a combination of both. It all depends on the circumstances.

    Also at the heart of this issue is what one believes about the organization and one's intent in staying in the organization. Buddhist philosophy has been helpful to me in weighing the nuances of knowledge, perception, doubt, intention, carefulness, and awareness. Buddhism also has a teaching about "right livelihood."

    Here is a link to an article called "Vinaya Principles for Assigning Degrees of Culpability" by Peter Harvey:

    http://jbe.la.psu.edu/6/harvey991.htm

    None of us can look into the heart of another and know their intent. Neither can we know exactly where any other person is along the spectrum of belief/disbelief in Jehovah's Witness doctrine. Without this knowledge, I am loath to cast stones.

    Whatever standards I use to judge elders, I feel I must first use to judge myself. If a "good elder" perpetuates the myth that the WTS is God's organization, I think a "good publisher" does the same. What varies is the degree of influence each may have.

    When it comes to doling out blame for remaining one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I largely blame myself and my desire for simple answers, security, a sense of belonging, and immortality in paradise.

    This is from the French report of December 22, 1995, "Cults in France":

    Plusieurs interlocuteurs de la Commission ont mis en évidence ce paradoxe : l'originalité des groupes sectaires réside dans le fait que, notamment lors du processus aboutissant à l'adhésion, la victime est acteur. Un certain parallélisme peut être établi avec la démarche des toxicomanes : " Nous avons des controverses avec les parents de toxicomanes. Ceux-ci pensent - d'une certaine façon à juste titre - que sans l'horrible dealer leur enfant serait un ange. Ils oublient les neuf dixièmes du trajet qu'a parcouru le malheureux enfant, responsable ou non, mais de son fait, pour se rendre dans les bras dudit dealer. Il ne faut pas exclure la part volontaire de l'adepte, qui n'est pas un imbécile que l'on manipulerait - c'est vous et moi --, mais (...) qui s'est rendu délibérément." Dans cette optique, les recruteurs des sectes ont pu être présentés comme des "dealers de transcendance." A cet égard, une image utilisée par une personne entendue par la Commission paraît particulièrement apte à faire comprendre le caractère conscient de la démarche du futur adepte: "les sectes ne sont pas un filet qui s'abat sur des gens, mais une nasse dans laquelle ils se rendent."

    Several speakers to the Commission highlighted this paradox: what is odd about cultish groups is that, particularly during the process leading to adhesion, the victim is an actor [actor in the literal sense of one who acts, one who does, is not a passive victim]. Certain comparisons can be made with the stages of drug addicts: "We have debates with the parents of drug addicts. The parents think--in a certain way rightly--that without the horrible dealer their child would be an angel. They forget the nine tenths of the way that the unhappy child traversed, responsible or not, but of his own will, to go into the arms of the aforesaid dealer. One should not forget the voluntary share of the follower, who is not an imbecile that one would manipulate--it is you and me--, but (...) who went deliberately." Accordingly, the recruiters of the sects could be introduced as "dealers of transcendence." In this respect, an image used by a person heard by the Commission appears particularly apt to illustrate the conscious character of the step of the future follower: "Cults are not a net that falls down on people, but a lobster trap into which they swim."

    Ginny
  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Ginny,

    None of us can look into the heart of another and know their intent. Neither can we know exactly where any other person is along the spectrum of belief/disbelief in Jehovah's Witness doctrine. Without this knowledge, I am loath to cast stones.

    I just have to say that I find your posts among the most reasoned and sensitive on this Board.

    Thank you - HS

  • Julie
    Julie

    Hi Sir Step,

    You said:

    :I just have to say that I find your posts among the most reasoned and sensitive on this Board.

    So right, that Ginny is a classy dame.

    Julie

  • msil
    msil

    .

  • teejay
    teejay

    Whatever standards I use to judge elders, I feel I must first use to judge myself. If a "good elder" perpetuates the myth that the WTS is God's organization, I think a "good publisher" does the same. What varies is the degree of influence each may have.

    Ginny,

    This is, in a nutshell, all Amnesian was saying.

    At one point she admitted

    I was a JW. Thank God, at least, never an elder, but I am still both culpable and guilty. And personally responsible.
    Amazing thanked her for her brutal honesty. She never said that she, or any average JW publisher, was exonerated from the part we all played in continuing the lies of the WTS. Her entire thesis however, 100% correct imo, is that the difference (and it is HUGE) is in the matter of degree. About THAT there really can be no debate.

    Btw, you started your post by saying that you felt this issue was "getting muddied by the battle mentality--Amazing vs. Amnesian, elders vs. rank and file, men vs. women." I think in saying that you totally miss a crucial point. The issue here is fairly simple and is not defined by terms that are usually thrown around in discussions here.

    This argument, for the lack of a better term, isn't about individuals -- whether posters on JW.com with opposing views or male/female -- but about a very real, ongoing situation in which people are being abused and, by varying degree abusers are accountable. Male/female, men/women, Amnesian/Amazing has nothing to do with it and only cloud an understanding of the real issue. It's about the relative power (and the responsibility/culpability that is connected with it) of various members of the wts.

    "What did you know and when did you know it?" is a query that has been used in courts of law to ascertain the level of one's 'guilt.' It's a useful question in THIS debate.

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