Imperfection is irrelevant. Who has the right to rule?

by bluecanary 117 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  reniaa

  hi bluecanary

  You will know the "he who without sin cast the first stone" that is a problem I accept. If Jws ran a more governmental arrangement where they swapped and changed leaders every few years would it work better? IMO Nope because clearly governmentally atm it doesn't, you just get different sets of problems. You do get a false sense of control over leadership which for me is just a placebo because so often the leaders voted in by their people don't do what those people want.

  If you yourself set up your own church and people looked to you for doctrinal and spiritual guidance could you do a better job?

  Imperfection means NONE of us could do a better job.

  but....is this a good enough excuse to abandon a structured body of faith in Unity?

  I actually think the world is going with the individual. Culturally in religious belief we are all trying to be faiths of one alone, 'each to their own' being the moto but does this work? IMO absolutely not instead of unity you just get millions of religious divisions IMO it kills faith there is no unity of belief under God with division.

  So I turn to the bible which clearly says we have leadership among ourselves till Jesus's return.

  Romans 12:8
  if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously. if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

  this is non-negotiable scripture but also our imperfection is also non-negotiable.

  Surely the point is that we can only argue if we can ourselves be perfect and say we wouldn't make those mistakes?

  As for whether they follow the bible? Personally I think they do a pretty good job, not bending to the winds of public opinion. And that they have managed as a whole religion to tear themselves away from trinity among other things. That doctrinely has remained the same since russels day shows to me personally a mark of holy spirit guidance.

  Perfection of person is impossible but trying to follow the bible especially in doing the preaching work and not "burying your shekel" to me is very important biblically from Jesus himself.
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Romans 12:8
  if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously. if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

  this is non-negotiable scripture but also our imperfection is also non-negotiable.

  Surely the point is that we can only argue if we can ourselves be perfect and say we wouldn't make those mistakes?

  Referring to the earlier WT article I quoted:

  *** w07 4/1 p. 21 par. 1 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***

  “YOU must not let people call you ‘leaders’—you have only one leader, Christ!” (Matthew 23:10, The New Testament in Modern English) With these words, Jesus made it plain to his followers that no man on earth would be their leader. Their one Leader would be heavenly—Jesus Christ himself. Jesus holds this position by divine appointment.

  So which scripture is it? They contradict. Either you accept Christ alone and can thus make your own decisions based on your conscience, or you disregard what Jesus said here and follow the Governing Body of JW's as a cult member?
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  isaacaustin

  Certainly we can not expect perfection from our leaders. However, when they have a history wrought with dishonesty, false prophecy, terrible decision-making, choices for the self-serving interests of the leader as opposed to the people I would say this makes that leader/leaders not qualified for their posotion.
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  AllTimeJeff

  The problem with the concept of imperfection is that it is a JW word not found in the bible. Look it up in WT Library, and you will find it in a ton of Watchtowers (the real JW bible)

  Bluecanary's question and point are excellent. JW's aren't just imperfect, they are wrong.

  The real question is, what have they got right? What haven't they changed?
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  Spike Tassel

  so, now we're to turn to Isaac and ATJ for our leadership? do they now have the right to rule? I think not.
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  isaacaustin

  Where did I claim I did Spike? I do not see where ATJ did either. I simply pointed out where your cultleaders are not qualified to lead in any capacity. Go take your meds boy, you a hallucinating again.
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  Spike Tassel

  Isaac and ATJ don't like being outed, it seems, so they must seem qualified, at least to themselves, to offer direction to us poor lowly masses, even telling some to take medication when it is actually "counterindicated".
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  isaacaustin

  Outed? I was never baptized, so obviously never dfed. I was simply an unbapt publisher and removed (thankfully) from that. I am glad Satan's org removed me from whatever role I had. And, yes...knowing the org for what it is and how it is run (from growing up in it and attending meetings 23 years) I am in a position to offer help or direction to others. I do not not lead, I attempt to assist.
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  bluecanary

  Spike, I'm trying to keep this thread on an intellectual level. I appreciate your thoughts and opinions here, but please do not try to bait the other posters. No one has made any assertions of leadership.

  reniaa, thank you for your response. I agree that a system of voting in GB members would not result in the members being any more perfect. Have you ever seen the movie Remember the Titans? In a stirring speech, one of the football players says, "Now, I ain't saying that I'm perfect, 'cause I'm not. And I ain't gonna never be. None of us are. But we have won every single game we have played 'til now. So this team is perfect."

  This thought could be applied to the writers of the Bible. Individually, all were imperfect. But with the application of God's spirit, they produced perfection. Would you agree with that?

  If someone claims to be acting in accord with God's spirit, is it unreasonable, then, to hold their actions, as a group, to a higher standard?

  The point of this religion is not simply whether they are better than the other religions out there. The point is whether or not they do, in fact, have God's backing. If they do not, there is no meaning to what they do. You are, of course, welcome to still do it. But if there is no meaning in it, most people would not choose to live such an unrewarding lifestyle. Therefore it is of the utmost importance to this religion to convince people that it does have God's backing.

  The onus is not upon the people to say, "Well, it looks like they maybe got something right, so I guess I'll believe everything they say." The onus is on the GB to show through everything they do and say as a group that God is working through them. Is God incapable of overcoming human imperfection to get correct information disseminated?

  I believe any one of us can say "IF God chose to work through me, he would make his work perfect despite my imperfection."

  Looking at the context of Romans 12:6-8, I do not see that this indicates an organized body of leaders that must be obeyed. There are many different ways in which a Christian may be a leader, without being a general rule-maker.
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  Spike Tassel

  some like me, are assisted by Jehovah's Word, not by Isaac. I find that Jehovah's Word gives the best direction.