Imperfection is irrelevant. Who has the right to rule?

by bluecanary 117 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • bluecanary

    Umm you mentioned her twice in your first post, not me... Dumbass...

    mkr32208, notice the distintion between quoting a person and talking about that person. If you can't abide by posting guideline number one, please do not post on this thread.

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    I believe that rights are conferred upon individuals or groups by a higher authority, and the when they are within their rights, they are right.

    Assuming the Jehovah, the Creator, is the Ultimate Giver of rights (since I assume Him to be the Highest authority), it then follows that His method(s) of delegating authority should be the guide(s). It seems to me that the Bible sets out the variety of authorities and some notion as to the parameters of each, and the chain of command (a.k.a. headship principle).

    I believe that, in essence, whoever is closest to Jehovah's thoughts on the matter, has the greater right to rule.

  • Narkissos

    Perhaps one of the major legal shifts in the 20th century came up with the Nurenberg trials: people can be held responsible / accountable for obeying orders. Which means they are ultimately responsible / accountable for the choice / decision to obey, and all "beliefs" and "assumptions" leading to such choice or decision, or rationalising it after the fact... Sobering thought if you don't turn it into a Godwin argument. :)

  • gubberningbody

    "Do YOU not know that if YOU keep presenting yourselves to anyone as slaves to obey him, YOU are slaves of him because YOU obey him." - Ro. 6:16

    Are JW's slaves of the GB or of Christ?

    Ans: the GB

  • palmtree67

    As the title of this thread points out: Imperfection is irrelevant.

    Reniaa, we all accept the GB as being imperfect. You can stop trying to convince us of that.

    The point here is: Who has the right to rule. You didn't address the point.

    I can accept that God may have a group or a person to help direct us to Him. He has done that in the past. But there's a difference between someone who is HELPING others to cultivate a relationship with their Creator, and someone who DICTATES what that relationship should be like.

    If the GB speaks for God, then great. Let us know what his thoughts on everything are. Explain various Bible principles and how they can possibly apply. But then, LEAVE IT TO THE PEOPLE TO APPLY WHAT THEY HAVE LEARNED. Why do they have to be such enforcers??

    Each person's spirituality is different. Doesn't the Bible speak of spritual "babes" and of those "fully grown"?

    The GB expects, no - DEMANDS that everyone be perfect immediately and never make any mistakes or God help you, you will suffer now and miss out on Life Eternal.

    I still think the parent/child relationship applies. Expectations change as the child grows. We expect that they will eventually be potty-trained, learn to read, learn to take care of themselves.

    I just dont think God expects exactly the same thing from each of us. And I don't think the GB has the right to punish the way they do.

    Again, only on my first cup of coffee, folks....

  • DaCheech

    so according to narcissos, the neuringburg trials show that is you obey the bubbering body: and you do inhumane things THERE IS NO EXCUSE!

    hitler was a good persuarder, the blubbering body is just as!

    make your choice, and make no excuses!


    Name any ruler from the bible (obviously accept Jesus who is perfect) that has ruled without mistakes and imperfection? Moses? no imperfect and made mistakes till the end. King david? nope murderous adulterer:s Solomon? Nope eventually turned to pagan gods. Jewish leaders? Nope killed God's son Appostles? Nope they at one point believed Jesus would keep one of them alive until Jesus returned and got rebuked for it, as well as constantly fighting over who was the greatest. Current governements? the downward trend in people voting indicates a lack of interest and cynicism in the rulers we have. America had an upsurge in voting with obama america's first black american president but his honeymoon period is now over and he is becoming unpopular for not keeping to certain promises. All organisations have their leaders including God and his angels who within themselves had at least one Archangel. humanity is humanity and and what appeals for me is following bible direction and worshiping Jehovah. imperfection is our lot under the time cmes. Reniaa .................................................................................................................................................................................................................God chose Moses.. God chose King David.. God chose Solomon.. God chose Israel....... The WBT$ chose themselves as Gods Spokesman.. God had no choice.. God would`nt have a Job without the WBT$....... ...............LOL!!...OUTLAW

  • AllTimeJeff

    I like the idea that Narkissos has proposed here... We are responsible for obeying. (or not) More and more, the concept of personal autonomy is trumping the idea of obedience at all costs. JW's can say "The GB told us so..." but more and more former JW's are demonstrating that we are indeed willing and able to accept responsibility and reject the claims of the Governing Body when it is clearly not earned.

    Who has the right to rule? The GB insists that they do. I think they have got a free ride for a while because their own dogma concerning their time prophecies had yet to be determined.

    Would the generation that saw 1914 be around to see Armageddon?

    Oops, they changed that in 1995. Doesn't matter.

    Actually, it does.

    To have the right to rule, you have to be right on occasion.

    JW's act as if it is a forgone conclusion that the GB SHOULD be in control. Yet, there really does not exist a compelling reason for that to be ever assumed: Here is the latest GB reasoning on why they are in control.

    *** w07 4/1 p. 21 par. 1 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***

    “YOU must not let people call you ‘leaders’—you have only one leader, Christ!” (Matthew 23:10, The New Testament in Modern English) With these words, Jesus made it plain to his followers that no man on earth would be their leader. Their one Leader would be heavenly—Jesus Christ himself. Jesus holds this position by divine appointment.

    *** w07 4/1 p. 22 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***

    A Faithful Slave

    3 After his resurrection and shortly before his ascension to his Father in heaven, Jesus told his disciples: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” He also said: “Look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 28:18-20) He would continue to be with them as their active Head. In letters to Christians in Ephesus and Colossae, the apostle Paul likened the Christian congregation to a “body,” of which Christ is the Head. (Ephesians 1:22, 23; Colossians 1:18) The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges states that this metaphor “suggests not only vital union with the Head, but that the will of the Head is exercised through the members. They are His instruments.” Whom has Christ used as his collective instrument since being invested with Kingdom power in 1914?—Daniel 7:13, 14. (ATJ: Notice that a scholarly reference is referred to, but not quoted. You have to take their word for it. And this after discussing a concept that is specifically NOT STATED in the bible)

    4 The prophecy of Malachi foretold that Jehovah, “the true Lord,” accompanied by his “messenger of the covenant,” his newly enthroned Son, Christ Jesus, would come in judgment to inspect His “temple,” or spiritual house of worship. “The appointed time” for the ‘judgment of the house of God’ to begin evidently arrived in 1918. (Malachi 3:1; 1 Peter 4:17) Those claiming to represent God and his true worship on earth were duly examined. The churches of Christendom, who for centuries had taught God-dishonoring doctrines and had been heavily involved in the massacre of World War I, were rejected. A faithful remnant of spirit-anointed Christians were tested, refined as with fire, and approved, becoming to Jehovah “people presenting a gift offering in righteousness.”—Malachi 3:3. (ATJ: Even if Malachi 3 refers to such an inspection, which upon a contextual reading, it an absolute leap of convenience, how do they come up with the year? WHERE WHERE WHERE does the bible point to this? It doesn't. But the Watchtower does...)

    5 In line with Malachi’s prophecy, the composite sign that Jesus gave his disciples to enable them to recognize the time of his “presence and of the conclusion of the system of things” included the identification of a collective “slave.” Jesus stated: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matthew 24:3, 45-47) “On arriving” to inspect the “slave” in 1918, Christ found a spirit-anointed remnant of faithful disciples who since 1879 had been using this journal and other Bible-based publications to provide spiritual “food at the proper time.” He acknowledged them as his collective instrument, or “slave,” and in 1919 entrusted them with the management of all his earthly belongings. (ATJ: What else did Jesus find? Few of the doctrines and practices that JW's were doing in 1918 are still around. How did he entrust them in 1919 to be the only true religion? What even signaled this? What scripture indicates this? It doesn't. IT SIMPLY ISN'T THERE)

    The bolded portions are damning. JW's acknowledge that the bible gives no authority to any one man other then Christ. Then, they spin this absolute fairy tale, (also bolded), pretty much claiming whatever is convenient. Unfortunately for them, it has zero basis in reality.

    While it really started with Captives of a Concept and Ray Franz's two books, it was still very difficult for most typical JW's to have access to the information about these claims to authority that the GB used until the age of the internet. In a somewhat ironic coincidence, 1995 could be considered the year that the internet really got its footing, and that is the same year that the generation teaching changed.

    "Who has the right to rule" also means that in addition to the responsibility that Jesus supposedly put in the hands of these men, also means accountability. Who holds these men responsible for all they got wrong? You can only claim that you are who Jesus chose for so long before their exists actual evidence (or lack therof) to back up your claim...

    The official policy of the GB is that no one can hold them accountable. It should be good enough for you to believe that the invisible Jesus will hold them accountable for any mistakes, no matter if the mistakes harm you, no matter if the dogma if done out of knowledgeable falsehoods. The imperfection argument is a cover. It disguises what the real question should be, which is: Have they earned the right to the claim as the one true religion? And the answer is no.

    The right to rule isn't claimed, it is demonstrated and earned. The GB are "faithful" only to their power, and "discreet" in how they try to cover their tracks.

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    Jesus, as the one closest to Jehovah's thoughts on matters, has the right to rule, as the appointed Head of the Congregation. If Jesus' agents act out of line, there is a protocol in place to deal with these matters. The times & seasons are for Jehovah and those he entrusts with the knowledge. The right to rule is given to those Jehovah entrusts.

    Claims that "the official policy of the GB is that no one can hold them accountable" ought to backed up by WT quotes to that effect.

  • AllTimeJeff
    Jesus, as the one closest to Jehovah's thoughts on matters, has the right to rule, as the appointed Head of the Congregation.

    The JW god, Jehovah, is a false god and is not found in the New Testament.

    If Jesus' agents act out of line, there is a protocol in place to deal with these matters.

    No there is no protocol. This is a factual lie.

    The times & seasons are for Jehovah and those he entrusts with the knowledge.

    Getting back to the false god part, Jehovah got every date wrong without exception for the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses, starting with all of CT Russells dates. IF Jehovah entrusts special knowledge, then he does a lot of changing of his mind at best. Or worst, these guys are simply false prophets. Why is it so hard to call them what they are, wrong and false?

    Claims that "the official policy of the GB is that no one can hold them accountable" ought to backed up by WT quotes to that effect.

    My bullsh*t meter redlined on this quote. I don't need a WT quote. Why would they come out and say it and thus open themselves up for liability? No, it is the official policy of the GB that no one can hold them accountable by over 120 years worth of history. Every attempt by others internally and externally to get them to accept responsibility for their false dates, ridiculous positions on dogma and medicine, mental health and the like, have been met with fierce resistence, not the humility that Christ said would be a mark of his people.

    Accountability isn't a quote saying "We are imperfect and not inspired. Of course, we are still spirit annoined and spirit directed so our authority still stands."

    Accountability is "For over 120 years the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses have engaged in an unusual study of the bible, trying to search for dates for Jesus presence and the time of the end. Especially for the first 50 years of the history of the WTBTS (1879-1939) we changed them often, and were wrong every time. Even 1914 changed, along with the source material that we use as evidence of our claim. We put special emphasis on 1975, making very strong statements that Armageddon was coming that year. We changed the meaning of the term generation found in Mat 25, not because we had new light, but because that generation had died off and we got it wrong yet again. The point is, we were wrong on all counts, and this shows we are not inspired, spirit directed, or spirit appointed. We understand that to make that claim we have to get at least one time prophecy right, and we haven't. We also understand as a result that if you became a JW because of these unfulfilled prophecies, then you may leave without censure, as you bought into a religion that made claims that were false"

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