Imperfection is irrelevant. Who has the right to rule?

by bluecanary 117 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • bluecanary
    bluecanary

    Thank you Spike. I don't wish this to become a discussion on whether birthdays are, in fact, acceptable to God. I accept your feeling on the matter. I've also heard the arguments to the contrary and understand why other believe that birthdays are acceptable to God. I chose birthdays as an example because many of the witneses I have known do not think that birthdays are necessarily evil; they eschew them merely because the GB tells them to. Obviously, this is not true of all witnesses, but that does make it a good example of something that is not a hard Biblical truth.

    In regards to the narrow door, do few go through it because they do not want to or because they do not accurately understand that it's the correct door?

    In the illustration of the vine, Jesus is the vine. John 10:5 says:

    "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

    Would it be appropriate to reword the scripture in this way:

    "The Organization is the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in the Organization and the Organization in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from the Organization you can do nothing.

    Is that different than what the GB teaches?

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    Christ is the spiritual Head/ Leader of the body Jehovah approves; Christ has the scriptural rights Jehovah has given him. I cannot speak on behalf of the GB since I'm "not one of Jehovah's Witnesses", according to the latest platform announcement I heard regarding me by name. I believe the Jehovah's witnesses (those whome Jehovah accepts as such) are not necessarily the same as JWs (those whom the CCJW classifies as such). The spiritual leadership whom Jehovah accepts, and the physical leadership whom the registering governments recognise, are certainly going to be arrived at by different thinking processes, since Jehovah's ways are higher than man's (Isaiah 55:8).

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    so you beleive one does not need to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses (the group) to be saved, nor does one need to be associated with that particular group?

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you [Or, "their knowing you." Greek, hi´na gi·no´sko·si se.], the only true God, and of the one you sent forth, Jesus Christ. — John 17:3 NWT Reference Bible with footnoted portion expanded and highlighted.

    As to exactly what the parameters of "taking in such knowledge", I let Jehovah and Jesus Christ dictate the terms as they see fit, so that I cannot be held in contempt.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff
    As to exactly what the parameters of "taking in such knowledge", I let Jehovah and Jesus Christ dictate the terms as they see fit, so that I cannot be held in contempt.

    The world is governed more by appearance than realities so that it is fully as necessary to seem to know something as to know it. ~Daniel Webster

    A half truth is a whole lie. ~Yiddish Proverb

    Bore: A man who deprives you of solitude without providing you with company. ~Gian Vincenzo Gravina


    Some people are so boring that they make you waste an entire day in five minutes. ~Jules Renard

  • bluecanary
    bluecanary

    Shameless bump. I did so enjoy this thread; I hate to see it die.

    "Everyone has the right to express opinions. But men who claim to be God's spokesmen on earth surely do not have the right to express mere opinions while claiming that what they say is backed up by God's own Word and should be accepted as such. When statements are spread around the globe as God's message for mankind as spiritual "food in due season," those publishing them are certainly neither "faithful" nor "discreet" if they irresponsibly express fallacious opinions argue tenaciously for them, belittle any who disagree or, worse, question their loyalty and humility before God."--Ray Franz, Crisis of Conscience

    Some questions on this thread I would still like to see discussed:

    How would you define human perfection? Is it an ideal standard or a description of the highest standard yet attained? How would perfection be manifest? Is perfection compatible with free will?

    Is it possible that, as he did in the past, God speaks through multiple individuals or entities today? What are the criteria for determining whom God has spoken to?

    If someone claims to be acting in accord with God's spirit, is it unreasonable, then, to hold their actions, as a group, to a higher standard? Is God incapable of overcoming human imperfection to get correct information disseminated?

    How many doctrines must a religion get right in order to prove that they have God's backing? How many are they allowed to get wrong?

    What are the criteria for determining which doctrines are the most important to get correct?

    How do you choose if two or more religions teach the same correct doctrines?

  • palmtree67
    palmtree67

    I will also bump this thread, it was one of my favourites.

    I have all those same unanswered questions. *sigh*

    Please God, can we just do the best we can in this labyrinth of religion and still get an "A" for effort?

    Yours Truly,

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    bluecanary (Post 666):— How would you define human perfection? Is it an ideal standard or a description of the highest standard yet attained? How would perfection be manifest? Is perfection compatible with free will?

    Spike Tassel (Post 1589):— Matthew 5:48's NWT Reference Bible footnote shows "complete" as the alternative rendering for "perfect". Matthew 5:43-48 shows that this perfection is in loving our enemies just as we love those who are not, just as Jehovah makes His sun rise upon both wicked and good as well as makes it rain upon both righteous and unrighteous. I see it as the ideal to always strive for. The exercise of perfection is a free will choice, whether by Jehovah or by any of us, in this context.

    bluecanary (Post 666):— Is it possible that, as he did in the past, God speaks through multiple individuals or entities today? What are the criteria for determining whom God has spoken to?

    Spike Tassel (Post 1589):— Whoever is even-handed and righteous in their understanding and application of love and its prophetic statements, and holy in their motives is Jehovah's representative, whether as an individual, as a family, as a congregation, or as a brotherhood. The Bible sets the criteria in these matters.

    bluecanary (Post 666):— If someone claims to be acting in accord with God's spirit, is it unreasonable, then, to hold their actions, as a group, to a higher standard? Is God incapable of overcoming human imperfection to get correct information disseminated?

    Spike Tassel (Post 1589):—Actions speak louder than words. So, our spirit of holiness as borne out in our individual dealings must be in agreement with Jehovah's spirit of holiness, as found in the Bible. It is reasonable to deal with each of us individually, according to our circumstances. With Jehovah, all things are possible, which suggests that we can all receive the correct understanding insofar as Jehovah's holy spirit bears witness with our spirit.

    bluecanary (Post 666):— How many doctrines must a religion get right in order to prove that they have God's backing? How many are they allowed to get wrong?

    Spike Tassel (Post 1589):—The footnote at 2 Kings 17:26 shows that "religion" is translated from the Hebrew word "mishpát", which can also be rendered "judgment; judicial decision". Jehovah's judgments apply, depending on circumstances, to us as individuals, as families, as congregations, as a brotherhood, or according to other groupings: all based upon the principle that as we have sown, so shall we reap, whether to the flesh (with corruption in view), or the spirit (with everlasting life in view). Religion, thus, is NOT one-size-fits-all; we DON'T all have the same load to carry; some loads are individual, some are assigned by family, some by congregation, some by other groupings.

    "Doctrines" is also translated "teachings", which should all be in accord with the spirit of the Holy Scriptures, and fitting a wholistic view of the circumstances to which the teachings are applied.

    It follows that compliance is required regarding all of Jehovah's judicial decisions, by all parties. Repentance and contrition are required, in accord with Jehovah's headship protocols, to gain/ regain favour before Jehovah. The example of Job praying on behalf of the 3 wrongful accusers demonstrates this point, to the benefit of all involved.

    bluecanary (Post 666):— What are the criteria for determining which doctrines are the most important to get correct?

    Spike Tassel (Post 1589):—Of course, fundamental to all of this is Christ's directive to love Jehovah whole-souled, and our neighbour (including our enemy) as ourself.

    Hebrews 6:1-2 discusses primary doctrine about the Christ as one's foundation, in these words (I've underlined the key expressions):— For this reason, now that we have left the primary doctrine about the Christ, let ups press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works, and faith toward God, 2 the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment.

    There are a number of prohibitions, which have the penalty of disfellowshipping, etc., including the penalty of the second death. These prohibitions must be correctly understood and respected, as demonstrated by our life course and decisions.

    And, we must not forget the mention at Acts 15:28-29 regarding regardgin the following necessary things:— to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled (or, killed without draining its blood), and from fornication.

    Really, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is true when it states that:— All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

    Jesus prayed regarding "all flesh", "the whole [number] whom you [i.e. Jehovah] have given him [i.e. Jesus Christ], [that] he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their [i.e. our] taking in knowledge of you [i.e. Jehovah], the only true God, and of the one who you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

    bluecanary (Post 666):— How do you choose if two or more religions teach the same correct doctrines?

    Spike Tassel (Post 1589):—if two sets of judicial decisions teach the same correct points, then we choose by our obedient understanding and applications, as our spirit of holiness approaches Jehovah's, in the manner of James 4:8, which is recorded thus:— Draw close to God, and he will draw close to YOU. Clease YOUR hands, YOU sinners, and purify YOUR hearts, YOU indecisive (or, two-souled) ones.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    wow. An excellent dialog, and great points by Spike...except for your misapplication in the following paragraph you reasoned quite well:

    There are a number of prohibitions, which have the penalty of disfellowshipping, etc., including the penalty of the second death. These prohibitions must be correctly understood and respected, as demonstrated by our life course and decisions.

    My reply: please elaborate

    You then said:

    And, we must not forget the mention at Acts 15:28-29 regarding regardgin the following necessary things:— to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled (or, killed without draining its blood), and from fornication.

    My reply: Ah yes, the requesting of the newly converted gentiles to adhere to the same guidelines a resident alien in the land of Israel did in the days of Moses, not because they were still binding rules...but to preserve peace in a cong now filled with tension between the Jewish Christians still zealous for the Law and the newly converted gentiles never under such Law.

    Keep plugging away spike and you will get it.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Side note: notice that the notion of "perfection" in Matthew applies to a quality of life which is accessible to anybody right now (it's a command). Nothing like the WT notion of "perfection" which was supposed to be lost with Adam's "sin" and only recovered at the end of the millenium.

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