Jesus.....God or God's son? (page 27)

possible-san

reniaa, an arrogant lady.

You cannot explain nothing from the original word.You should say, "I do not know", if you know nothing.

So, I said, "You should become more modest."
You should not make a fool of others.

I agree with you that Jesus is not Jehovah so I completely reject trinity

You are not going to understand my explanation at all.
I stated so as explanation of the "Trinity."
"Jesus is not Jehovah" means "Jesus is not the Father."

You should STOP attacking the Trinity because you cannot understand the Trinity.
I think that you are stupid.

possible
http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/

Reniaa - you don't understand what I am saying. I know there are many different positions being expressed here it is hard to keep them straight. I don't think Jesus is GOD! Those are the other people debating with you. I believe what the bible actually says. If you look at your quote from Strong's it says proskenayo in Sept. (Septuagint - non-inspired translation of Hebrew scriptures) can mean other things. However the word in the inspired Greek scriptures only applies properly to Jesus and Jehovah. I do not believe words are left up to the translators "preference". The bible says what it says in the original language. To trust any single translation is trusting men not Jesus or Jehovah. The New world translation is not accurate in many ways - in some ways it is. NO ONE thinks it is an "inspired translation" - not even JWs. The Greek word "means bowing down to" but translates into English as worship. Do you want Scriptural quotes of Jesus being prayed to? (Again nice side step of the article I quoted. You're good at ignoring the points you don't want to repond to.) ........ Jesus is the Son he was created by God (his firstborn, beginning of creation) Jesus created all things as God's master worker. He was taught, trained, given responsibility, given abilities, all by the Father. After his ressurrection he was given a new position of rulership. He was to be worshipped, prayed to, obeyed.

reniaa

Good moring Allelsefails

While I haven't studies proskuneo indeftly I do know there are many uses of it in the Greek scriptures that are not just for Jesus and God so even if you have only once (and I know it is more than once) where it is used for someone other than Jesus and God as obeisance you cannot use it as proof text of divinity. Once you make a special case for both Jesus and Jehovah you have to ask yourself if it is you making the special case and applying Your wishes through translation, trinitarians from the third century had a vested interest in applying divinity to Jesus and that would reflect directly in their translation of the original greek.

Trinitarians had control of all translations from very early on we are fortunate false additions like 1 john 5:7 were found out and not still seen as part of the bible.

Reniaa

allelsefails

Reniaa - So we can't trust the bible we have today? I agree, but that is a different thread entirely. I do not use proskuneo as "proof" of divinity. John 1:1 - "the word was divine" or more proprerly "of the same nature as God" [look it up outside JW material before you tell me I'm wrong]. ...... You wrote - "I do know there are many uses of it in the Greek scriptures that are not just for Jesus and God so even if you have only once (and I know it is more than once) where it is used for someone other than Jesus and God as obeisance you cannot use it as proof text of divinity" ..... You obviously haven't studied it in depth. I'm telling you it is not used in reference to anyone else. Prove me wrong if you must. It is used as "worship" of a false God in Acts (obviously in a negative light) And in a parable - that refers to Jesus (in Matt.). Several times in Revelation where it always means "worship" - the Dragon the Wild Beast - in a negative light. [Not counting the not-inspired Sept. of course]

Spike Tassel

If "worship" actually means "bow down to, honour" using proskuneo as the basis, then I see no problem with "honouring Jesus". After all, Lord is an honourary title.

If, on the other hand that "worship" means "pray to", I'd need to see a scripture that says that someone actually prayed to Jesus, at any time. Prayer as I know it has always been scripturally directed to Jehovah, and (since Jesus' death) in the name of Jesus. Where is the proof that it is otherwise?

allelsefails

Spike- Right on the greek word it means the same in reference to Jesus as God. The word has to mean something - right? Acts 7:59 where Stephen said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” He was praying to Christ. John 14:14 - “If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do.” —John 14:14 We can pray to Jesus to ask for things. 2 Corinthians 12:8-9. It reads in the New World Translation: “In this behalf I three times entreated the Lord that it might depart from me; and yet he really said to me: ‘My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for [my] power is being made perfect in weakness.’ Most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast as respects my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may like a tent remain over me.” ....... Whose power? The power of Christ. Who answered his prayer? Christ with the words "my power".

Spike Tassel

Actually, I still don't see Stephen's words as a prayer. It is just like if Sarah ever said to Abraham, "Lord Abraham, receive my gift", or if someone said to Conrad Black today, "Lord Black, please accept my apologies".

reniaa

Matthew 18:26 (New International Version)

26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.'

one example lol in a parable

I have just looked into it a bit more, we have definitely narrowed it's meaning over time just to mean religious worship of God himself whereas in Pauls day it was more rightly obeisance and bowing down to someone you respect and honour who has authority in all cases.

here is someone more learned than I on the subject....

A very common claim by Trinitarians is to claim "Jesus is God" because we find both men and angels worshiping Jesus in the Bible. This claim is misleading because the English word "worship" does by itself imply a special kind of devotion to a divine being and in Christianity, God. However, what Trinitarians often do not disclose is that the use the one English word "worship" to translate two different Greek words, proskyneo, and latreuo. The first Greek word means simply to bow down before. It carries the idea of submitting to a higher authority. The second word is stronger and refers to subjecting one's self to divine service. Most of the Trinitarian claims concern the word proskyneo and we shall soon see here that this word was not used by the ancient Greek speaking people to refer to "worship" of God, or gods, only

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/jesusworship1.html

Also when you look at the greek septugint of hebrew scriptures it uses proskuneo to translate what is clearly just bowing doing homage in the hebrew scriptures.

Some other instances where the Septuagint uses proskuneo to refer to bowing down as a mark of respect are:
· Genesis 33:3: Jacob bowed to his brother Esau
· Exodus 18:7: Moses bowed to his father-in-law
· Ruth 2:10: Ruth bowed to Boaz
· 1 Samuel 20:41: David bowed to Jonathan
· 1 Samuel 24:8: David bowed to King Saul
No wonder, then, that Professor Beduhn comments: "There are passages where many translators have interpreted the gesture referred to by the Greek term proskuneo as implying 'worship'. They have then substituted that interpretation in the place of a translation."

http://jehovah.to/xlation/wo.html

I hope this answers your question.

Reniaa

Spike Tassel

I have just started a new Topic regarding "proof that the NT was likely first done in Hebrew". That's at http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/178219/1/proof-that-the-NT-likely-was-first-written-in-Hebrew. The link there points to a ©1996 Yahweh's New Covenant Assembly online article. I hope this adds useful reasoning to a key aspect regarding this whole debate.

Spike Tassel

Upon further Googling, I came across http://antiochapologetics.blogspot.com/2009/05/hebrew-new-testament.html, which agrees that Hebrew thought patterns are the basis of much of the non-Pauline NT, but seems to show that the actual documentary evidence so far found indicates that oral traditions may have kept the accounts alive until Greek was used to first write the NT.

I do remember seeing scanned excerpts of Greek manuscripts with just the Tetragrammaton written in some form of Hebrew, including Greek spoofs of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton such as PIPI [that is pi-iota-pi-iota].

Jesus.....God or God's son?

Matthew 18:26 (New International Version)

Share this