Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo 280 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  reniaa

  hi possible san

  the hebrew article I quoted also shows how hebrew does show numerical plural.

  It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural. For example, the second commandment forbids us to worship ???????? ???????? "other (pl) gods". In this phrase, not only does Elohim have the plural suffix, but it receives a plural adjective ???????? other (pl). This tells us that in the second commandment Elohim is used not as an majestic plural but as a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. The prohibition is not against a specific "other (sg) god" but against any "other (pl) gods". Elohim is used numerous times throughout the Tanach to refer to pagan gods and in most of these instances it is a numerical plural denoting multiple (false) gods. So we see that when the Tanach speaks about YHWH it uses Elohim as the majestic plural meaning "great God" but when it speaks about pagan gods it uses Elohim as a numerical plural meaning "gods". In both instances the accompanying verbs and adjectives reveal to us which meaning is intended.

  I think you would like an S like english uses but it isn't the case hebrew has it's own gramatical rules and it is all about the surrounding verbs and adjectives.

  Reniaa
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  allelsefails

  Reniaa - Right. And the eact same word is used for God and Christ. So why would a translater think he has the right to translate the word differently in different places. It shows how JWs have changed the bible to fit their beliefs in this case. They even changed the NWT several times since the original translation. including Hebrews ....... *** w54 5/15 p. 318 Questions From Readers *** In the New World Translation we note that when this Greek verb pros·ky·ne'o is applied to Jesus as a man on earth or materializing as a man after his resurrection, it is translated “do obeisance.” However, when referring to the glorified Jesus in the invisible heavens in the presence of the holy angels, the New World Translation makes a change and renders pros·ky·ne'o as applied to him by the English word “worship.” (Heb. 1:6) This is properly and consistently done. This Greek verb occurs only twice in the book of Hebrews, here at Hebrews 1:6 and at Hebrews 11:21 where Jacob is described as worshiping Jehovah God: “By faith Jacob, when about to die, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped [pros·ky·ne'o] leaning upon the top of his staff.” (NW; referring to Genesis 47:31, where the LXX also uses pros·ky·ne'o) So in the book of Hebrews pros·ky·ne'o is both times rendered “worship” and the angels of God are instructed to “worship” the glorified Jesus. Why is this? Because Jesus has been made so much higher than the angels, even higher than he was before he became a man on earth. (Phil. 2:5-11) It is the command of Jehovah God that they do this toward his Son. What does this mean? This, that even the angels are to render their worship of Jehovah God through Jesus Christ, whom Jehovah God has made the Head of his universal organization. That is why it is stated on page 85 of the book “Make Sure of All Things”, column 1: “Christ to Be Worshiped as a Glorious Spirit, Victorious over Death on the Torture Stake,” with three scriptures accompanying to prove that he is now a glorified spirit, and now no more flesh. Hey something I agree with the JWs on - the ressurected Jesus should be worshipped - Why? It is the Command of Jehovah.
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  possible-san

  reniaa

  When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural.

  WOW
  convenience!

  Then, why don't you admit that the God of the Trinity is One?
  It is not "the pagan gods."

  In both instances the accompanying verbs and adjectives reveal to us which meaning is intended.

  Please explain EXODUS 7:1 from the original word.

  possible
• 

  reniaa

  Hi allelsefails

  Once its established that a word can be translated many different ways and usually at the translators preference it can no longer be used as a proof text of Jesus's divinity, it is literally too weak a point. I don't need to defend the Jw usage of how they can LEGITIMATELY translate it. You lost your case when it was proved it doesn't have to be translated worship but obeisance.

  Reniaa
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  reniaa

  hi possible san

  as I Mentioned earlier your case is weak because of deut 6:4

  Deuteronomy 6:4-5

  4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH/jehovah our God, is one YHWH/Jehovah. [a] 5 Love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

  It is not saying just one God/elohim but only ONE YHWH/Jehovah completely thats it!

  You sidetracked by making it all about God when the problem is YHWH himself is the ONLY ONE.

  There is only one Great God YHWH who is ONE.

  trinity = 3 THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL

  reniaa
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  possible-san

  reniaa,

  It is not EXODUS 7:1.

  And I said to you "Please give explanation from the original word."

  Moreover, I already said you that the "God" of Deuteronomy 6:4 is the plural in the original word.

  You should not make a fool of others.
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  possible-san

  reniaa.

  Although I taught repeatedly "Jesus is not Jehovah" for you, the Trinity doctrine which other people teach may be suitable.
  
  That is, Jehovah is "the Father" and "the Son", and the "Holy Spirit."
  In that case, if you say, "only ONE YHWH/Jehovah", it will prove the Trinity.
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  mdb

  Jesus was directly quoting hebrew scriptures! At the time of him saying it greek scriptures didn't even exist and YHWH was in all the hebrew scrolls they used so he would have said YHWH and meant it.

  YHWH is not used in the original NT scriptures and your point is based on assumptions that Jesus said something that you weren't there to hear and that was not written down as such. The word for "Lord" in the passage you referenced is still "Kyrios" (as it is in all places that the WTS replaces "Lord" with YHWH) and you cannot presume Jesus said anything else. That would never hold up in a court of law... "Oh, but I'm pretty sure that He would have said it that way. I know it doesn't say that, but it only makes sense to me."

  This thread has gone to the birds. I'm done here... and no, you by no means won anything here Reniaa. These conversations are just going in circles. Until you can get your nose out of those Awake! and Watchtower publications and take the time to solely read the Scriptures without any mind-controling distractions, you'll never see their error.
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  reniaa

  Hi Mdb

  I do read the scriptures and when Jesus quotes the very commandments that God himself wrote on tablets unless your saying God lied about his name in the first place and Jesus didn't say 'Hallowed be thy name' you cannot assume he wouldn't use his father's personal name when quoting his own Father's personally written words.

  Hi possible san

  I am not making a case for trinity quite the opposite, I agree with you that Jesus is not Jehovah so I completely reject trinity in any of it's forms as unbiblical nowhere in the bible does it say god is 3 or any more than just One.... a great and Almighty one God YHWH/Jehovah.

  Reniaa
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  sacolton

  I guess we'll find out when we die.

  Do you think Jesus is going to hold it against us for thinking Him God? Thomas thought He was.

  John 20:28-31 (NIV) Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God , and that by believing you may have life in his name .

  To simply say He was the Son of God is not knowing His true identity. Afterall, the demons knew this:

  Matthew 8:28-29 (NIV) When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

  Mark 1:24 (NIV) "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!"

  Mark 3:11 (NIV) Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God."

  Mark 5:7 (NIV) He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!"

  Luke 4:34 (NIV) "Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!"

  Luke 4:41 (NIV) Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

  Luke 8:28 (NIV) When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!"

  So, how does your faith differ from Satan's demons?