I had a discussion with a JW sister today about miscarriage and the new WT

by BonaFide 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • BonaFide

    So this morning was the public talk and WT study. After, we did our usual and went to eat. The group was mixed ages. One of the sisters had the new WT in her hand. She said, "Hey Bonaifde, did you see the new WT?" I said I want to hear what you have to say, so let's order first." I wanted the whole group to hear this. I wasn't sure what she had in mind, but it could be good, right?

    So while everyone is eating, I asked her about the WT. She pulled it out and started reading the new Questions from Readers about miscarriages. She is in her 50's, baptized about 30 years. Daughter and son both JW's, active. She had remembered that I had said a couple of months ago that I don't understand why miscarried babies don't get a resurrection. At that time she had said it's because they don't take the breath of life (The standard JW answer that I always gave also) And then I said, "Then why is abortion murder?" That got her kind of upset, but I had no idea she remembered months later.

    So back to the present. She reads the Questions From Readers until she gets to this part: "So will those that are miscarried receive a resurrection? WE DO NOT KNOW." She put the WT down triumphantly, and said, "See, there it is."

    So I said, "Ok, but why did the WT 25 years ago say there was no resurrection for them?"

    She said, "I just read the WT. It says "WE DO NOT KNOW."

    Me: "Right, so if the Society doesn't know, then why did they print the article 25 years ago saying no?"

    Sister "Well, they are not inspired."

    Me "So if they are not inspired, then why did they write the article?"

    Sister "Well, that's what they thought at that time, but they were wrong, and now they are right."

    Me "Then why was the WT wrong back then?"

    Sister "Because they are not inspired." (At this point she is looking at the exit of the restaurant, no joke, again and again.)

    Me: "But Jehovah doesn't change his mind"

    Sister: "No he doesn't."

    Me: "So why does the WT change?"

    At that, another brother interrupted and said, "Ok Bonafide, why are you bringing this up?"

    Me: "I didn't bring it up."

    Brother: "Yes, but, well we have to be careful what we say about the Slave."

    Me: "Yea, you're right, I know I am not supposed to ask questions."

    Brother: "No, we can ask questions, just we have to be careful."

    Me: "No we aren't supposed to. It's not right, I just get excited. I will try not to ask anything, I know we aren't supposed to."

    Another sister in group, baptized one year: "Yes, we can ask questions."

    Me: "No we can't. It's not right. We can get into trouble, I mean look how everyone is upset with me for asking a question, why? Because it's WRONG."

    Same brother: "Look Bonafide, questions are OK. But like what kinds of questions, that's what we have to be careful of."

    Me: "What questions?"

    Same brother: "Just, like doubting questions"

    Me: "Oh, ok, no doubting questions. I just feel sorry for the sisters that lost their baby, and the WT says they won't be resurrected, but now they say they don't know. I feel sorry for them. 25 years is a long time."

    Older sister: "Well, I feel sorry for those sisters too, I feel bad for them."

    Me: "Ok, everyone, I will be careful, I know I should just repeat what the WT says, but sometimes I get questions in my mind, and I know I shouldn't. Next time I will just read the paragraph."

    Same brother: "No, I mean, yes it's good to have questions, not just repeat everything."

    Me: "No, it's not good, I will work on that. Anyway, did anyone here see 'UP'?"

    I wanted to write this down while it was still fresh in my mind. I know I might be getting a rep, and maybe worse, we will see. It's worth it to me. I really liked that the older sister REMEMBERED what I had said two months ago. Plus there were two younger ones in the group.

    Your comments? What else could I have said, or how else could I have phrased my questions?


  • jamiebowers

    I think you did perfectly well. Hey, maybe you're inspired, LOL!

  • boyzone

    Wow! I think you handled this really well and backed off just in time - kudos. I like the way you told them it wasn't YOU that brought the subject up but the sister. And you pushed the boundaries just enough to get some thinking.

    I liked this bit....

    Another sister in group, baptized one year: "Yes, we can ask questions."
    Me: "No we can't. It's not right. We can get into trouble, I mean look how everyone is upset with me for asking a question, why? Because it's WRONG."

    I bet you really got her thinking about this. Your questions were just strong enough to make the Society sound very controlling and paranoid.

    Good one.

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    this account really disturbed me.


    Brilliant Bonafide!

    You got them thinking and that is the important thing!!!

  • BonaFide

    Wha H, why did it disturb you?


  • C. T. Russell
    C. T. Russell

    Thanks for writing this down Bonafide, its absolutely classic.

    My favorite part “Another sister in group, baptized one year: "Yes, we can ask questions." I started cracking up when I read that. It’s true though, you can ask questions all day long. You just can’t ask questions about answers.

    I’m just worried about you though, you’re a dead man walking. Even though you ended the conversation I’m sure it really didn’t end. The gossip wheels are turning as we speak. Have you thought about fading yet?

    C. T.

  • Scott77


    you played by the 'slave rule' to your advantage so that in the end, the brother was effectively neutralized. The end result is that, sisters and the brother ended up agreeing about the need to ask questions, something which you was already doing before the brother interjected. I think this technique is very effective, that is the ability of playing by one's rule or game to drive down your point. Kudos, BonaFide.


  • carla

    This is what the public needs to know about jw's!

  • reniaa

    bonafide your mostivations were obvious, you weren't interested in miscarriages which the sister clearly was. Just pointing out defects in leadership changes of teachings

    i'm surprised they didn't use the refinement scriptures on you...

    Zechariah 13:9
    This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

    Corinthians 13:8-13 (New International Version)

    8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    these show clearly while we are still imperfect we have not the complete sureness that only perfection brings so refinement and constantly going to the bible as authority while we only have limited gifts of the spirits is the name of the day.

    Name one imperfect man that didn't need to be corrected from the bible?

    The sister made a fair point they we wrong in the past but had looked at it in a fresh way and seen that the bible isn't clear on this so a yes or no answer would be wrong, but do you even care?

    Your whole motivation was to say "I disgree and look they change their minds" I could quote examples of God changing his mind in the bible like with Jonah were he was going to destroy a people but they fully repented so he didn't. He wanted to wipe out the israelites and set up a new seed with just moses he was so angry with them but moses changed his mind. And yet later moses himself needed to be rebuked for errors that crept into his leadership?

    Bonafide has using this site made you forget biblical basics?

    Are you now expecting a perfect religion to step forward at armageddon who never make mistakes that don't need refinement?

    I admit their responses to you weren't great because they weren't addressing your clear motivations by your deliberate questioning of change in doctrine as the attack on leadership it was, they allowed themselves to be sidetracked on seeing it as a questioning issue.

Share this