70 years = 607?

by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  BarefootServant

  Scholar said:

  But one thing for certain our chronology has no 'big wiggles' or'gaps' as the chronology accepted by apostates has.

  A new lie, you certainly keep up the pace. Your chronology has a HUGE gap in explaining how Nebuchadnezzar could possibly have conquered Jerusalem in his 18th year as king. You have to insert 18 un-historical years into Nebuchadnezzar's life in order to achieve that. Perhaps you could find just one real scholar who would explain this huge anomaly in this well attested period of history.

  So when you have plugged the 'gaps' then you can live with the 'wiggle' as scholar in his wisdom does. He is happy with the 'wiggle' or the 'woggle'.

  Yes, I got that already, Scholar is happy with any old wiggle or woggle so long as he can derive the year 1914 from it.

  Your gap or gaps is proved by the missing 'twenty years' during the reign of Nebuchadnezzer for starters and that is just the beginning because of the failure to recognize the seventy years of servitude-exile-desolation of the Jews during the period of Babylonian domination.

  Don't be daft, the twenty year gap is your problem, not mine. The historical evidence is overwhelming that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 BCE. The Babylonian domination started in 609 BCE and ended in 539 BCE.

  You have presented nothing to prove your assertion that 538 BCE is the date for the Return.

  I made no such assertion, that's your department. I cannot prove that the Jews returned in 538 BCE any more than you can prove that they returned in 537 BCE. Which is a strange omission in God's word if we are meant to calculate a definitive date for the establishment of the messianic kingdom. This lack of a definitive date gives the lie to your claim that the according to the bible the only possible year for Jerusalem's destruction is 607BCE.

  Daniel 4 is about God's Kingdom and right to rule over mankind

  Show me the verse that raises the issue as to whether God has a right to rule.

  Nebuchadnezzer confessed to this simple fact after the end of seven years of abasement.

  Nope, Nebuchadnezzar confesses that God could give rulership to whoever he chooses, recognizes God's power and righteousness, and humbles himself.

  The dream has several features that prove that it has a far greater significance becaus ethat kingdom was yet to be a reality in men's affairs awaiting the arrival of Jesus Christ to be installed by God as Ruler of that Kingdom for this is proved by the prophecy in Daniel 4:17.,

  Daniel 4:17 says nothing about all these things that you read into it. It simply says that the events befalling Nebuchadnezzar is a lesson for the witnesses of those events.

  Your argument about God always ruling simply negates or buries the reality of a coming Kingdom that was prophesied to occur and really is utter nonsense. Too silly for words. You should study the subject of the kingdom more closely. If your argument is so then what is the Gospel which means good news of a furture or coming kingdom at some point in time.

  So you believe that God's rule is not permanent? Even though Daniel 4 tells us that it is? I am not denying a coming messianic kingdom, I pointed out that Daniel 4 is about God's sovereignty. Like 98% of the rest of the bible it is not about the messianic kingdom. What is too silly for words is your pathetic attempt to read into Daniel 4 something that is clearly not there.

  The tree dream in Daniel 4 requires and demands interpretaion for that is the reason why Nebuchadnezzer sought out Daniel to do just that interpret and as God and so it is today that this dream demands an interpretation during the 'time of the end'- Daniel 12:4.

  Good point. Daniel already interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dream, but that holy man's God-given interpretation is not good enough for you.

  BFS
• 

  isaacaustin

  bennyk

  Post 429

  Your misuse of the WT quote was mischevious because you failed to recognize the honest and modest way in which it was presented. Those Bible Students acted in sincerity showing faith in the Scriptures and heeded the Lord's commands and you have not recognized that they had and continue wak in integrity. That is a challenge for you.

  scholar JW

  My reply: Regardless of how sincere the students acted they were wrong. And worse- 1914 was a false prophecy.
• 

  isaacaustin

  Wow pseudoscholar. You really are a glutton for punishment. I have seen everyone on this thread kick your butt, and of course you are too deluded to see it…

  You said: isaac austin

  Post 1490

  Those texts in Daniel 4 explicitly relate to God's Kingdom which you choose to ignore only seeing what you want to see. In fact the entire book of Daniel is about the Kingdom as shown by the frequency of the term far more than any other book in the OT.

  My reply: No pseudo. They relate to Nebuchadnezzar becoming proud and being put in his place by God. The mention of God’s kingdom is simply to show that it is forever and in control, and Nebu did not come to power of himself. That’s it.

  The Aramaic word iddanim means 'appointed times' or 'time periods' as shiown by the footnote in the NWT Reference Bible, 1984, p.1097 and this is the literal meaning of this word as shown by the footnote 29 on page 210 in the Bible commentary series Heremeneia, Daniel, by John Collins, 1993, Fortress Press.

  The cataclysmic events after 1914 certainly proved that the Gentile Times had ended by October, 1914 thus vindicating those courageous Bible Students and is equally attested by those prominent clergman who in London, England published a Manifesto whic proclaimed the fact that the Gentille Times had expired by their determination in 1917.

  My reply: No, they proved nothing of that sort. They did prove the Bible Students to be false prophets though, as nothing prophecied came to pass.

  Those 'ridiculous stream of false prophecies' as you put were part of the interpretation of Bible prophecy which proved that those loyal Witnesses were watchful as the Lord commanded and proclaimed the significance of those prophecies as part of the Gospel message so we can be proud of all that has been accomplished in carrying out the Lord's will. What then are you doing is more to the question? What Gospel are you preaching?

  scholar JW

  My reply: Yes, those false prophecies were part of their misinterpretation of verses in the Bible- put together as though they make up a prophecy when they were completely unrelated texts. I preach the Gospel of Jesus- the same one Paul preached. You are preaching a different one. You may want to read Gal 1 and see the Bible’s view of one who does that.

  isaac austin

  Post 1487

  You need to brush up on your comprehension skills for past and present experience has demonstrated to schola rthat apostates have poor comprehension skills. Firstly, the account in Ezra 3:8 nowhere indicates in what year of Cyrus the temple foundation was laid for the text only states that" And in the second year of their coming to the house of the true God at Jerusalem, in the second month... Secondly, just because Josephus states that the temple foundation was laid in the "second year of Cyrus" does not necessarily equate for the purpose of chronology for Josephus does not mention in what month this occurred.

  My reply: My comprehension skills are just fine pseudo…and the fact that they demonstrate they are lacking to you tells me they are quite adequate. Ezra 3:8 does not indicate that the temple foundation was laid in the 2 nd yr- verse 10 does:

  8

  In the year after their coming to the house of God in Jerusalem, in the second month, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua, son of Jozadak, together with the rest of their brethren, the priests and Levites and all who had come from the captivity to Jerusalem, began by appointing the Levites twenty years of age and over to supervise the work on the house of the LORD.

  9

  Jeshua and his sons and brethren, with Kadmiel and Binnui, son of Henadad, and their sons and their brethren, the Levites, stood as one man to supervise those who were engaged in the work on the house of God.

  10

  When the builders had laid the foundation of the LORD'S temple, the vested priests with the trumpets and the Levites, sons of Asaph, were stationed there with the cymbals to praise the LORD in the manner laid down by David, king of Israel.

  You truly lack comprehension pseudo. Josephus confirms this.

  Celebrated WT scholars in dealing with the chronology of this period have determined from the Bible record that the Temple foundation was laid in the second month in the year after the Jews returned which would be 536 BCE. The attempted synchronization of Ezra 3:8 with Josephus remains a dilemna for scholars and scholar himself has an interest in this matter. Interestingly, a chart entitled Chronology -Ezra-Nehemiah on page 667, in The NIV STUDY BIBLE, 1995, Zondervan agrees with us that the Jews built the altar in the 7th month 537 BCE and began work on the Temple in the 2nd month 536 BCE.

  My reply: The WT drones who you celebrate have come up with 536 because it suits their doctrine. What are these drones names (for the 5 th time)? What are their credentials? Tell us.

  Alan F long ago tried to synchronize Ezra 3:8 with Josephus but scholar trounced him on it so at face value there may be some merit in the argument but the detail puts the argument aside for further research by competent scholars and scholar himself no doubt will sove the problem. One cannot base an argument on assumption as Alan F tried to do and so are you, an argument such as this must be based on what the text actually states and not the reading into the text something of an apostate agenda.

  scholar JW

  My reply: Alanf kicked your butt in every thread I have seen, given your view of yourself I highly doubt you have trounced anyone. I am quite proud to be considered apostate from the WT. The WT is completely apostae from God, so the fact that Satan’s org (the WT) considers me such is a compliment in the highest.
• 

  Mary

  Aaaah.....poor, poor pseudo-scholar. He has no leg to stand on, keeps switching his stories, and continues to ignore the obvious. When he has no rebuttal and his poor explanations are exposed as baseless and built on false interpretations, he becomes increasingly irrational and attempts to insert even more insane drivel into the scriptures. He obviously has a major problem with someone like Leolaia who has more brains in her pinky than what scholar has in his entire being. He doesn't like it when someone else knows the scriptures, Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, Archaeology and history far better than what he does. Silly fool.
• 

  isaacaustin

  Mary, My 5 year old could refute scholars logic, or lack thereof. He has not documented any of his claims. He makes definitive assertions with fluffy wording. Take out the fluff and it is just a few words making a baseless assertion.
• 

  isaacaustin

  ok, Scholar has convinced me! Jerusalem was destroyed in 607BCE. He has proven in such an detailed and scholarly way that that is the only date that really works! We can clearly see that Daniel 4 had a greater future fulfillment- so obvious as the overall them is God's Kingdom- it is mentioed in several verses. Crystal clear is that this greater fulfillment is detailed by Jesus in Luke 21- he so frequently speaks of Daniel. Since nothing significant occured 7 times, or 7 years after Jerusalem's destruction- which happened in 607BCE, as verified by some of the greatest scholars of all time- we apply the Bible rule of a day for a year and come out with 2520 years (Rev makes it clear 3 and 1/2 times is 1260 days, so doubled is 2520 years. Count forward from the date Jeru was destroyed and we arrive at 1914, of which there is ample evidence marked the ending of the Gentile Times. The fact that we switch from 360 day years to 365 day years is irrelevant in understanding bible prophecy.

  And 607BCE is the only date that works since we know undisputably that the Jews returned to their promised land in 537BCE- thus marking the end of the Gentile Times (I know Jeremiah says it ends upon the fall of Babylon- but don't let those aposates confuse you with their garbage). Simply counting back from 537BCE takes us to 607BCE. Simple as pie.

  How can anyone here be so unreasonable to not accept this? Mary, barefoot...Outlaw...who do you think you are fooling....

  LOL
  I'll stop...
• 

  Mad Dawg

  Scholar said:

  You should consult Insight On The Scriptures, 1988, Vol.1.pp.568-569 under the heading 'Cyrus' Decree for the Return of the Exiles under the article entitled CYRUS for a more detailed discussion on this matter. Enjoy!

  Ummmm, a couple of things here:

  Ø You have loudly and proudly proclaimed that you could easily prove that the exiles returned 537 years before the common era using the Bible ONLY.

  o Why are you sending me to a book if you can easily do this using only the Bible?

  o If this is such an easy task, why are you having such a hard time with it?

  Ø I will not refer to Insight for two reasons:

  o It is not the Bible. If you are using the Bible only, then use the Bible.

  o I do not have access to this book. I am not going to buy this book when it has nothing to do with my question.

  You have claimed that this is any easy task, please do it and be done with it. Please be a man of your word.
• 

  isaacaustin

  typical WT logic:

  28 PivotalDatefortheHebrewScriptures. A prominent event recorded both in the Bible and in secular history is the overthrow of the city of Babylon by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. The Bible records this event at Daniel 5:30. Various historical sources (including Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, Ptolemy, and the Babylonian tablets) support 539 B.C.E. as the year for the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus. The Nabonidus Chronicle gives the month and day of the city’s fall (the year is missing). Secular chronologers have thus set the date for the fall of Babylon as Oct ober 11, 539 B.C.E., according to the Julian calendar, or October 5 by the Gregorian calendar. 29 Following the overthrow of Babylon, and during his first year as ruler of conquered Babylon, Cyrus issued his famous decree permitting the Jews to return to Jerusalem. In view of the Bible record, the decree was likely made late in 538 B.C.E. or toward the spring of 537 B.C.E. This would give ample opportunity for the Jews to resettle in their homeland and to come up to Jerusalem to restore the worship of Jehovah in “the seventh month,” Tishri, or about October 1, 537 B.C.E.—Ezra 1:1-4; 3:1-6. So we have a vague statement- "In view of the Bible record"...the decree was LIKELY made late in 538/sring 537BCE. This would give ample opportunity for 537BCE. Allbased on a possibilty, from the WT own lit.
• 

  Mad Dawg

  Isaac, is your quote the section of Insights that scolar refers too? Thanks for posting it. Regardless, we have the WT claiming a date that does not come from the Bible. It comes from secular sources.

  My points are thus:

  • The legitamacy of the GB and the WTS is bases on dates - 607, 537, 1914, 1919.
  • No where in the Bible can it be shown that these dates are pegged to a certain point in history.
  • Any date that is given is calculated using secular translations of Babylonian writings.
  • Therefore, we can factually state that the legitamacy of the GB and the WTS is ultimately based on Bablylonian writings - not the Bible.
• 

  isaacaustin

  no, this is Insight vol 1, page 282

  Here is psedo's requested reference:

  Why

  doestheCyrusCylinderexplainBabylon’sfallinamannerdifferentfromthe

  Bible?

  Despite this pagan interpretation of events, the Bible shows that, on making his proclamation authorizing the exiled Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple there, Cyrus acknowledged: "All the kingdoms of the earth Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me, and he himself has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah." (Ezr 1:1, 2) This, of course, does not mean that Cyrus became a Jewish convert but simply that he knew the Biblical facts regarding his victory. In view of the high administrative position in which Daniel was placed, both before and after the fall of Babylon (Da 5:29; 6:1-3, 28), it would be most unusual if Cyrus were not informed of the prophecies that Jehovah’s prophets had recorded and spoken, including Isaiah’s prophecy containing Cyrus’ very name. As regards the Cyrus Cylinder, already quoted, it is acknowledged that others aside from the king may have had a hand in the preparation of this cuneiform document. The book BiblicalArchaeology by G. Ernest Wright (1963, p. 203) speaks of "the king, or the bureau which framed the document" (compare the similar case with Darius at Da 6:6-9), while Dr. Emil G. Kraeling (RandMcNallyBibleAtlas, 1966, p. 328) calls the Cyrus Cylinder "a propaganda document composed by the Babylonian priests." It may, indeed, have been drawn up under the influence of the Babylonian clergy (AncientNearEasternTexts, p. 315, ftn. 1), thereby serving their purpose of explaining away the utter failure of Marduk (also known as Bel) and the other Babylonian gods to save the city, going even to the extent of attributing to Marduk the very things that Jehovah had done.—Compare Isa 46:1, 2; 47:11-15.

  Cyrus’

  DecreefortheReturnoftheExiles. By his decreeing the end of the Jewish exile, Cyrus fulfilled his commission as Jehovah’s ‘anointed shepherd’ for Israel. (2Ch 36:22, 23; Ezr 1:1-4) The proclamation was made "in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia," meaning his first year as ruler toward conquered Babylon. The Bible record at Daniel 9:1 refers to "the first year of Darius," and this may have intervened between the fall of Babylon and "the first year of Cyrus" over Babylon. If it did, this would mean that the writer was perhaps viewing Cyrus’ first year as having begun late in the year 538 B.C.E. However, if Darius’ rule over Babylon were to be viewed as that of a viceroy, so that his reign ran concurrent with that of Cyrus, Babylonian custom would place Cyrus’ first regnal year as running from Nisan of 538 to Nisan of 537 B.C.E.

  In view of the Bible record, Cyrus’ decree freeing the Jews to return to Jerusalem likely was made late in the year 538 or early in 537 B.C.E. This would allow time for the Jewish exiles to prepare to move out of Babylon and make the long trek to Judah and Jerusalem (a trip that could take about four months according to Ezr 7:9) and yet be settled "in their cities" in Judah by "the seventh month" (Tishri) of the year 537 B.C.E. (Ezr 3:1, 6) This marked the end of the prophesied 70 years of Judah’s desolation that began in the same month, Tishri, of 607 B.C.E.—2Ki 25:22-26; 2Ch 36:20, 21.

  Cyrus’ cooperation with the Jews was in notable contrast with their treatment by earlier pagan rulers. He restored the precious temple utensils that Nebuchadnezzar II had carried off to Babylon, gave royal permission for them to import cedar timbers from Lebanon, and authorized the outlay of funds from the king’s house to cover construction expenses. (Ezr 1:7-11; 3:7; 6:3-5) According to the Cyrus Cylinder (PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 332), the Persian ruler followed a generally humane and tolerant policy toward the conquered peoples of his domain. The inscription quotes him as saying: "I returned to [certain previously named] sacred cities on the other side of the Tigris, the sanctuaries of which have been ruins for a long time, the images which (used) to live therein and established for them permanent sanctuaries. I (also) gathered all their (former) inhabitants and returned (to them) their habitations."—AncientNearEasternTexts, p. 316.

  Aside from the royal proclamation quoted in Ezra 1:1-4, the Biblical record speaks of another document by Cyrus, a "memorandum," which was filed away in the house of the records at Ecbatana in Media and was discovered there during the reign of Darius the Persian. (Ezr 5:13-17; 6:1-5) Concerning this second document, Professor G. Ernest Wright says, "[it] is explicitly entitled a dikrona, an official Aramaic term for a memorandum which recorded an oral decision of the king or other official and which initiated administrative action. It was never intended for publication but solely for the eye of the proper official, following which it was filed away in government archives."—BiblicalArchaeology, p. 203.

  Death

  andPropheticSignificance. Cyrus is believed to have fallen in battle in 530 B.C.E., though the details are somewhat obscure. Prior to his death, his son Cambyses II evidently became coregent with him, succeeding to the Persian throne as sole ruler when his father died.

  The prophecies concerning the sudden fall of symbolic Babylon the Great as set forth in the book of Revelation parallel in major respects the description of Cyrus’ conquest of the literal city of Babylon. (Compare Re 16:12; 18:7, 8 with Isa 44:27, 28; 47:8, 9.) The king at the head of the mighty military forces described immediately after the account of symbolic Babylon’s fall, however, is no earthly king but the heavenly "Word of God," Jehovah’s true anointed Shepherd, Christ Jesus.—Re 19:1-3, 11-16.