Sunday Public talk that talked about oral sex

by TooBad TooSad 304 Replies latest members adult

  • independent_tre
    independent_tre

    although raised in the truth, I did not decide to get baptized until adulthood, and it was only then the discrepancies began to show. The pioneer sister I studied with in 2002 made it a point to discuss marriage bed defilement ( one of the most uncomfortable studies we had) and that oral sex between married couples was a disgusting practice frowned upon by the society. This was 2002, and this was still being taught, if not from the platform, at least it was in their ministry. Fast forward to a Sunday meeting in 2005, an elder in my congregation made it clear from the platform that it is impossible to engage in pornea within the marital bond. Huh?

    It was this kind of internal flip flopping that angered me and let me realize that the average JW does not know what they believe and many of them merely wait for the next issue of the Watchtower to be told what to believe. Kind of like renaiaa's continually asking for a 2009 edition of the WT to be told what doctrine it is that JW should currently believe. As if what was printed a year, 2 years, 10 or 20 years ago no longer matters. Scripture has never changed, only the WT version of truth have. And since they refuse to print any clear retraction of their earlier statements, these kinds of talks will continue to be given. That's the problem when an organization sees itself as such an authority, that they can tell married couples what they can and can't do in bed.

  • Pilchard
    Pilchard

    *** w00 11/1 p. 8 par. 6 A Godly View of Moral Cleanness ***

    6 What is meant by the word “fornication”? It comes from the Greek word por·nei´a, which is sometimes used to apply to sexual relations between unmarried people. (1 Corinthians 6:9) Elsewhere, such as at Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9, the term is broader in meaning and refers additionally to adultery, incest, and bestiality. Other sexual practices between individuals not married to each other, such as oral and anal sex and the sexual manipulation of another person’s genitalia, can also be designated as por·nei´a. All such practices are condemned—either explicitly or by implication—in God’s Word.—Leviticus 20:10, 13, 15, 16; Romans 1:24, 26, 27, 32.


    Form this we learn about pornea:

    It is used within marriage ONLY to describe relations OUTSIDE of that marriage: adultery, incest, bestiality. So behaviour that is not "pornia" within marriage becomes pornia when performed with someone other than ones spouse.

    Otherwise 'pornia' refers to various sexual activities OUTSIDE of marriage.

    *** w83 3/15 pp. 30-31 Honor Godly Marriage! ***

    Married Christians

    How about sexual activity between married couples within the marriage bond? It is not for the elders to pry into the intimate lives of married Christians. However, the Bible certainly enters into their lives. Those who would “keep walking by spirit” should not ignore the Scriptural indications of God’s thinking. And they will do well to cultivate a hatred for everything that is unclean before Jehovah, including what are clearly perverted sexual practices. Married couples should act in a way that will leave them with a clean conscience, as they give unimpeded attention to developing “the fruitage of the spirit.”—Galatians 5:16, 22, 23; Ephesians 5:3-5.


    The tone of the 1983 is strongly erring to the conservative side with respect to what God might find acceptable.

    However this part of the article CLEARLY states that it is the married couples CONSCIENCE that is to be followed.

    *** w83 3/15 pp. 30-31 Honor Godly Marriage! ***

    What, though, if one mate wants or even demands to share with his or her partner in what is clearly a perverted sex practice? The above-presented facts show that porneia involves unlawful sexual conduct outside the marital arrangement. Thus, a mate’s enforcing perverted acts, such as oral or anal sex, within the marriage would not constitute a Scriptural basis for a divorce that would free either for remarriage. Even though a believing mate is distressed by the situation, yet that one’s endeavor to hold to Scriptural principles will result in a blessing from Jehovah. In such cases it may be helpful for the couple to discuss the problem frankly, bearing in mind especially that sexual relations should be honorable, wholesome, an expression of tender love. This certainly should exclude anything that might distress or harm one’s mate.—Ephesians 5:28-30; 1 Peter 3:1, 7.


    Here the 1983 article is focusing upon a mate who is UNCOMFORTABLE with what they are being asked to do in the bedroom

    Not the scriptures used are about a husband needing to be LOVING to his wife? Not about sexual matters?

    *** w83 3/15 pp. 30-31 Honor Godly Marriage! ***

    As already stated, it is not for elders to “police” the private marital matters of couples in the congregation. However, if it becomes known that a member of the congregation is practicing or openly advocating perverted sex relations within the marriage bond, that one certainly would not be irreprehensible, and so would not be acceptable for special privileges, such as serving as an elder, a ministerial servant or a pioneer. Such practice and advocacy could even lead to expulsion from the congregation. Why?


    Now here the 1983 article CLEARLY states that private marital matters are NOT to be policed. It mentions the possibility of expulsion. But NOT expulsion for what one simply practices but for PROMOTING such practices among the congregation. Obviously elders need to be safe from accusation so if it becomes KNOWN that a couple engage in this activity they would not be able to become an elder.

    So if by YOUR conscience you feel it is okay you will not be judged. However if you encourage others to follow your lead in the GREY area then that would not be acceptable.

    I see NOTHING in the 1983 rticle that changes the CLEARLY stated position from this 1978 article:
    *** w78 2/15 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***

    Beyond these basic guidelines the Scriptures do not go and, hence, we cannot do more than counsel in harmony with what the Bible does say. In the past some comments have appeared in this magazine in connection with certain unusual sex practices, such as oral sex, within marriage and these were equated with gross sexual immorality. On this basis the conclusion was reached that those engaging in such sex practices were subject to disfellowshiping if unrepentant. The view was taken that it was within the authority of congregational elders to investigate and act in a judicial capacity regarding such practices in the conjugal relationship.

    A careful further weighing of this matter, however, convinces us that, in view of the absence of clear Scriptural instruction, these are matters for which the married couple themselves must bear the responsibility before God and that these marital intimacies do not come within the province of the congregational elders to attempt to control nor to take disfellowshiping action with such matters as the sole basis. Of course, if any person chooses to approach an elder for counsel he or she may do so and the elder can consider Scriptural principles with such a one, acting as a shepherd but not attempting to, in effect, “police” the marital life of the one inquiring.


    In short it seems that in 1978 the WT ruled that they should NOT interfere in the bedchamber but leave matters to the individual conscience of the wedded couple.

    However they WOULD intercede if one of the marriage partners was being asked to do something that THEY found disgusting of distressful. If your unorthodox sexual practices became a public spectacle, you would NOT be considered to become an elder.

  • DaCheech
    DaCheech

    according to wt, rules and interpretations always change in "new light" theory, but priciples stay forever!

    Reniaa here holds jesus so dear, but jesus himself condemned the pharasees for so many rules and regulations...... the WT is the modern day pharasee

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    @ Pilchard - I'm curious what your personal take on the Governing Body making rulings and overtly discussing what should be private between two married, consenting adults is.

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    But who ever said the boys in Brooklyn ever had a brain.

    I used to say they were Brilliant!!!! Now I say they have sex on there mind,
    if you "aint" getting it! You might as well think about it!!!!
    Poor souls I bet they feel so guilty if they suddenly have a "Wooden Peg"
    and they have to give these talks ,so no one else gets any...

  • TooBad TooSad
    TooBad TooSad

    I have delt with the subject of oral sex for the last 30 years. 15 of those years

    was as an elder. I personally told married couples that OS is OK and that the

    body of elders has no right to say what a married couple may or may not do

    in bed. In our body of elders there were two of us that held my thought process

    and three others that said that OS is a discusting fealthy thing. The WTBTS has

    gone back and forth on this subject serveral times. Some times they are very

    direct and other times they beat around the bush. One recent article said that

    when unmarried couples have oral sex that it is fornication. By using the word

    unmarried in the sentence then there was the implication that if you are married

    then it must be OK. I am sure there there are many witness couples that do

    OS but they are not going to tell anyone. Then there are couples who would not

    dream of putting thier lips and tongues in unapproriate places.

    Even though there may be escape clauses in some of the articles, everytime the talk

    that is given on the Godly gift of marriage (I have heard this damn talk 3 times in the past

    4 years) the brother always says that when married couples enagage in oral sex and anal sex

    that is is pornia or fornication. What ever is said from the platform, or appears in the Watchtower

    always ranks over what the Bible says.

    TooBad TooSad

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    However they WOULD intercede if one of the marriage partners was being asked to do something that THEY found disgusting of distressful. If your unorthodox sexual practices became a public spectacle, you would NOT be considered to become an elder.

    How would they (the elders) find out? Maybe because it is already understood among the rank and file that oral and anal sex are no no's. A married couple does the do, someone starts to feel guilty (guilt is such a wonderful controling method) and decides to run to the elders spill the beans and compromise the privicy of the marriage bed. Oops, now the elders (and the whole congregation cuz we all know elders have loose lips (no pun intended - well maybe ) especially with the elderettes) knows the "dirty" deeds that have been going on. That's how it would become a public (or should I say pubic ) spectacle - elders are not clergy and do not take vows of silence and have no formal education to do any sort of marital counselling.

    Geez

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    But what you may not know is. Many husbands get a bit violent if he doesnt have his way

    When I was a JW.many of the sisters ( whose hubbies were NOT JWS)
    would call me & ask for advice ( they considered me a MUM) there hubby's wanted it
    but the Elders told them Jehovah forbid it. Of course trying to explain to an unbeliving mate
    was useless, they thought the WT was stupid anyway.
    They would cry & say "what am I going to do? leave him?
    I tried my best to encourage them to stay with the man. But that was wrong also.
    Because being beaten, & me encouraging it, I now realize was terrible.

    Thank God some didnt take my advice.Oh how wicked this cult is.
    Unfortunately I have to live with the fact I was a follower & did exactly as they taught
    God forgive me.

  • Pilchard
    Pilchard

    @ Pilchard - I'm curious what your personal take on the Governing Body making rulings and overtly discussing what should be private between two married, consenting adults is.

    I think within the arrangement of headship there is every possibility of women becoming the victimes of mild or subtle forms of abuse such as being asked to do things they are uncomfortable with in bed.

    Until the 60's this was unlikely to have been much of a problem, or at least not recognised as such.

    I think it is the correct place for the elders to determine what is scripturally acceptable or not and I think they *should* do this when the actions of one person may strongly affect another.

    So in the bedroom women DO need to be able to go to someone if they are uncomfortable.

    I think in the past the society erred to the side of caution and struch a tone of strong conservatism. However subsequently as more women have become open to greater degrees of sexual activity these views seem to have been relaxed. However the tone is still set such that IF one partner does not feel comfortable then the elders are still there to provide help for that individual.

    In particular the 1983 article seems to focus on the COMFORT of the partners involved.

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    Really? Is that so? I really feel for women whose husbands are violent with them. Time to call the cops and not the brothers I say. But getting back to the subject, my husband would never stand for someone outside of our marriage tell him what he can and cannot do in bed with me his wife. We're both mature enough to agree or disagree on what we want to do in bed. But we don't discuss the intimate details of our sex life with any outside parties anyway...not even our pastor.

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