jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Slappy

  This may have been mentioned before but I can't remember for sure and I most certainly did not feel like going back and seeing if it had. I do remember this scripture being reference, but I only remember Reniaa doing so; and since it's safe to assume that she did not use it properly, I will carry on.

  I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them. John 17:20-26

  I placed the emphasis on each capitalized pronoun with bold typesetting (other than 'I' for obvious reasons). The capitalization is as it is in the NKJV, NASB, KJV, and others.

  What does this tell us? Not only the capitalization of the pronouns (which signify Deity), but the words of Jesus himself? Do you dare refute the words that passed His lips? Do you dare to say that what is being said is not actually what is being said?

  God loves Jesus. Does God love angels?

  Jesus knows God. Does a man know God? In the way that Jesus has reference to?

  The term 'one' is used 5 times in this portion. Each time it is the same Greek word.

  1520e?? [ heis / hice /] numeral. (including the neuter [etc.] hen); TDNT 2:434 ; TDNTA 214 ; GK 1651 ; 271 occurrences; AV translates as “one” 229 times, “a” nine times, “other” six times, “some” six times, not translated four times, and translated miscellaneously 17 times. 1 one. TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament TDNTA Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G1520

  No nuance or anything that suggests 'one' is anything else than what it is; and that being 'one'. One is one, I really don't know how to say anymore than that.

  I also looked up 'known' as that term is used 3 times in this portion.

  1097????s?? [ ginosko / ghin· oce ·ko /] v . A prolonged form of a primary verb; TDNT 1:689 ; TDNTA 119 ; GK 1182 ; 223 occurrences; AV translates as “know” 196 times, “perceive” nine times, “understand” eight times, and translated miscellaneously 10 times. 1 to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel. 1a to become known. 2 to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of. 2a to understand. 2b to know. 3 Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. 4 to become acquainted with, to know. v v : verb TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament TDNTA Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G1097

  "The world has not known You...", but Jesus said "I have known You". Pay attention to the verb tense; 'have known' carries the sense of an ongoing knowledge that has been present forever. This corresponds with the phrase "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the world...".

  slappy
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  OBVES

  What to you need is to go one step further and seek how God of the Bible is understood in our present days if they are to be our final days and Daniel 12.4,9 is actually taking place now .

  Just use simple common sense . To have one God in three persons we would have to have in the Bible written like that:

  1/3 of God - the Father , 1/3 of God - the Son , 1/3 of God - the Holy Ghost .

  God of Israel was called the Father . The only one true God is the Father of Israel - Exodus 4.22 as he called Israel His first-born son.

  Whenever a word God is applied in the Bible to any other being it must be interpreted in the context they appear and in relation to other binding statements. Isaiah 28.9-10.

  John 20.17 :

  Jesus said " My Father and your Father , My God and your God . It is simple as that and it confirmes what I have just said.

  Moses in Exodus 7.1 is called God .

  Note there werer no capital letters used in the old Hebrew language, so we deal with the word " god " in each and very case .

  That makes understanding who is God extremely difficult and one needs spirtitual enlightment to grasp the truth who is God .

  Yahweh is god , Moses is god, Jesus is god and there are and were other gods !

  Now today using the English language I can easily use the size of the letters to express well the truth who is God Yahweh.

  Yahweh - GOD , Jesus - God , 144000 gods , Moses - " God" and some great ancients " gods " .
  If you read deeply into this one single statement above you may get the point who is God Yahweh and who are other gods.

  If I were translating John 1.1 I would use the two words there to make a distinction .

  In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word was God.

  I used to attack Jehovah's Witnesses on the issue of Jesus .Using Hebrew 1.8 to that effect to later find out that I was wrong and

  Jehovoh's Witnesses that I talked didn't have the right explanation to convince me . Later on I came up with the satisfactory explanation that supports

  Jehovahs Witness view .

  If you are seriously interested in looking for more explanations on the subject who is God Yahweh and who is Jesus and the Holy Ghost go to the google group : alt.religion.jehovahs-witn . I wrote there on these subjects before. I am not a Jehovah's Witness ( from the organization you have in mind ) yet I have found more proofs to confirm their numerous beliefs .
• 

  Slappy

  If you are seriously interested in looking for more explanations on the subject who is God Yahweh and who is Jesus and the Holy Ghost go to the google group : alt.religion.jehovahs-witn . I wrote there on these subjects before. I am not a Jehovah's Witness ( from the organization you have in mind ) yet I have found more proofs to confirm their numerous beliefs .

  Furthermore, JosephMalik said something about seeing his book on said subject.

  Do either of these sources provide anything that the Bible, with prayerful consideration and prayerful study, cannot provide?

  As things stand right now, it seems to be about "me" and "what I wrote" and "see how smart I am". As Paul states over and over and over, it's not about him, but about Christ. Christ is all to Paul. Christ is Paul's God. Good thing Christ is God, otherwise that would be a problem.
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  Pubsinger

  ROFL at Ninja's YouTube clip
  
  Pubsinger has left the building . . .
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  JosephMalik

  Slappy,

  Just look at your dictionary definition of divine. It is a trinitarian joke. Use the texts where the word appears. You do not have many to pick from. What does it say there? That is the only place where what is meant by the word can be determined. And its application can vary from text to text because of what is being discussed. Divine is simply thrown around like everyone should know what it means when it is never used that way in scripture. Use outside of scripture or in other literature does not modify somehow what scriptural authors were trying to say. This is really simple stuff made difficult by theologians and misuse.

  Oh and I noticed that you said this in another post: If Jesus was a man, he would not be able to be the sacrifice that was required to save us.

  Did you make this up or did you get it from someone else that was also confused on this requirement for the sacrifice? Most men would not qualify but Jesus did. Why? Because God was His Father and not Adam. This human Jesus, the literal creator of the human race in the beginning would now become the only human begotten by God personally. That is why the human Jesus was: (Trumpet blasts please) the only begotten Son of God. Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. . . Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. . . Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. . . Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. This son, yes this human son being discussed was the exception.

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  To posses divinity means you must be a God. Since the bible says there is only one true God and you are saying it is not Jesus, then you must think Jesus is a false god?

  Lovelylil,

  No, possessing divinity does not mean you must be a God or God. Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. So humanity can have divine qualities as other texts also show. Can you see what happens when you get away from the texts and just throw the word around? And the use of God does not identify our Supreme Being that also has a specific name or identity as well as the designation of God (a word that is shared by others including humans). Such other use is why this confusion exists. They see it as nothing when it does not suit them.

  Lovelylil said: Why can't you and Reniaa accept that Jesus was God "in the flesh" and that to be the Son of God, he must be equal in nature to the father?

  I cannot speak for Reniaa and there is no real problem with saying that Jesus is our God in the flesh. After all He will return in the flesh to rule in His Kingdom here on earth and hopefully we will see Him at that time. Thomas did that and so did Paul at 1 Tim. 1:17. That is not the problem. When the word is used of a human with authority over us then saying that Jesus is our God or wise God is just fine. Saying that he is King is also fine. Saying Savior is just fine. Saying that this God we are now calling Jesus is our Supreme Being that is also identified as LORD in capitals or GOD in capitals or YHWH is not. This is wrong period. Use of words, that is what need to understand. Many words like this have multiple definitions and picking the wrong one leads to false doctrine.

  Lovelylil said: Also, why don't you accept the testimony of the Apostles Paul and John who say Jesus as the Son of God was equal in nature to the father and thus was what the Bible calls "God"?

  Because being equal in nature does not make one a Supreme Being like the LORD. And Paul did not even bother to discuss the nature of other Sons of God in existence having the same nature the WORD had. It is a nice thought but it does not make that person YHWH. In fact it is simply something that we can all have as well but it will not make us God. 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

  Joseph
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  IP_SEC

  In the beginning there were many gods. The local god who became most powerful was Yod He Vau He. Yod He Vau He was a triune god. Yod He (the father) Vau (the mother) He (the son child)

  When this so called Jesus person was on earth he claimed to be the He (son child) not just the son of God. Hell they were all sons of God how was that blasphemy? But now claiming to be the He now that called for the death penalty. The Jews killed him (which he deserved)

  Now this upstart religion claimed to worship the same Yod He Vau He that the Jews did. But it didnt quiet fit their new theology so they changed some things around. The Jews had already made the three into one god so that was fine. All they needed to do was get rid of the female. So they brought in Yod He's younger brother (yes im being sarcastic at this point) an turned that creepy uncle into the holy ghost.

  Voila! You have the trinity.
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  reniaa

  ok lovelylil

  but it still stands scripturally that he is God the son, totally equal in nature to the father.

  you show me in one place in the bible were it says with that exact phrase 'God the Son' and i'll convert to trinity!
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  lovelylil

  Joseph,

  The fact is that the Apostles worshiped Jesus and you cannot worship anyone but God. I think many on this thread have explained as clearly as possible, using scripture to show that both the Apostle Paul and John accepted that Christ was equal in nature to the father and thus was God so I will not go into that again. We just have to disagree. But I thank you for your well thought out comments.

  Reniaa,

  I am not talking "trinity", only the divinity of Christ. You claimed in the beginning of this thread Jesus denies being God, but you have yet to provide one scripture that supports your statement. You are stuck on trinity, but I am not a true trinitarian as Joseph already explained to you. However I do accept the divinity of Christ as it is a scriptural teaching.

  who knows, I may be on my way to becoming a full trinitarian. The Holy Spirit is still working with me.

  You should take a lesson from Joseph, at least he can explain his beliefs in his own words without spouting WT doctrine. At least HE knows why he beleives what he does. Whether I agree or not, I respect his opinions.

  Slappy and StAnn,

  I think you two are going to convert me to full trinitarian yet.

  Peace, Lilly
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  reniaa

  Thank you josephmalik

  your indepth posts have helped me understand better the whole situation in dealing with Jesus the question of god and divinity.

  Always I could never understand with the ones who say he is God and revealed it most as he got resurrected, why then in Acts onwards he is still God's servant and God's son especially when we can see holy spirit working on people, it more than anything else doesn't gel with the doctrine of the trinity, if there was a time for there to be any credibility to the trinity it would had to have proof texts in Acts onwards but none, no reference to 3-1 or 1-3 or any of the unbiblical expressions people have to use to describe trinity because there is nothing in the bible for them to use.

  But back to your words on divinity

  Because being equal in nature does not make one a Supreme Being like the LORD. And Paul did not even bother to discuss the nature of other Sons of God in existence having the same nature the WORD had. It is a nice thought but it does not make that person YHWH. In fact it is simply something that we can all have as well but it will not make us God. 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

  Joseph

  cool reply :) and a scripture i can use in future.

  Reniaa