jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Slappy
    Slappy
    Also remember the bible isn't written for scholars its written for average joe to understand and he would walk away going 'OOoh Jesus is Gods son!" The bible God's inspired word is telling us what the nearest definition to jesus's and jehovah's relationship is, Believe it!.

    If your have to argue special circumstances to make certain words come to different conclusions then you really need to relook at your conclusions...

    I agree, the Bible was written so the average person could understand it. But the Bible was not written in English. It was Hebrew and Greek. I will let one more knowledgable than I explain the differences in the languages and such things as idioms and nuances that can be lost in translation. That is why it is necessary to return to the original languages. Then your average joe can understand it.

    slappy

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    The constant reminders that they are 3 separate beings means that God is lying in OT when he says he is one God.

    Deu 6:4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

    use Jehovah in place of Lord if you like

    one God- not 3 Gods. 3 person who work in perfect unity which is actually what this particular Hebrew word 'one' can denote- echad..this can mean numerical one or can mean one, as in unity...such as a compound unity. The other Hebrew word for one is 'yachid' which can only mean one in number- this word is never attributed to God. So your verse in Deut is not indisputable by any means.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    My reply: How did Peter reply when given worship? Acts 10: 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and, falling at his feet, paid him homage 26 Peter, however, raised him up, saying, "Get up. I myself am also a human being.

    IssacAustin,

    Of course. That is all Peter was. He was not appointed to be a King like Jesus was. He was not Cornelius’ Savior. Such worship or obeisance as it is also known was for rulers not citizens. Peter’s simple remark let it be known that he was simply another human being doing his job as an equal to that man. Now that was a nice way to put Cornelius as ease. After all Cornelius, a powerful man in his own right was interested in doing something greater with his life by serving God. And Cornelius knew that Peter had great power and support not common to ordinary humans since he came in answer to his prayers and the miraculous vision he had. 30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago, until this hour, I was keeping the ninth hour of prayer in my house; and behold, a man stood before me in bright apparel, 31 and saith, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call unto thee Simon, who is surnamed Peter; he lodgeth in the house of Simon a tanner, by the sea side. Well now would you be a little afraid of Peter when he showed up? Of course. But now Cornelius would know that it was not from this human source like Peter, but from a far greater source or power Peter also served that the holy spirit coming upon him and his family and friends gathered together would originate. So what were you trying to make of it?

    Joseph

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi isaacaustin

    I am not an ancient language scholar so had to goto source to see if what you say regarding 'one' echad was correct as you say it,

    Of the 943 times (by my count) echad is translated "one," it is translated to indicate a single character 901 times. In the remaining instances when it is involved in describing a group effort, it still means one.

    In reference to the Shema, the claim that the linking of the word Elohim and echad in the same statementindicate plurality of God is totally unfounded. So much bias has been infused into that statement that the accuracy of it is negligible. It becomes a Trinitarian doctrinal statement instead of a Biblical description of God. Deuteronomy 6:4 is speaking of ONE WHAT? ONE GOD! This is made clear by the scribe's reply to Jesus' statement that the Shema was the most important commandment in Mark 12:32, "Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he." If elohim or echad are referring to more than one of anything, they are referring to more than one GOD, which would make Trinitarians polytheists, or at least tritheists. Remember, for elohim to indicate any plurality, it would indicate a plurality of gods; not one God in three but three gods. If the Bible could be quoted as saying one gods, Trinitarians may have a legitimate argument, but that very statement would be contradictory. It would have to declare "one Trinity

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/echad.htm

    If I answer this personally the Jews are massive scholars of their bible if there was a way of applying plurality to both this word and elohim in this context they would have picked up on it, Jews who know there language well absolutely laugh of the idea of making it plural given the whole context and usage, people who don't understand their language well misapply it this way. to try and justify trinity.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Joseph,

    The point I was trying to make was that obeisance/worship, as per Peter, does not go to man. Peter said this. Jesus never corrected anyone for worshipping him. Hebrews says that all angels are to worship him. We have a scene in Revelation ch 5 (or is it 4?) where the Lamb receives the same worship as the Father.

  • Matt_fs
    Matt_fs

    Reniaa,

    Who resurrected Jesus from the dead?

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Are you stating that Jesus is not God but some angelic form like God and that he can be properly worshiped as such? If so, you are scripturally wrong.

    Lovelylil,

    Yes. Jesus is an angelic form like God. Even identified by name or title as Michael the Archangel. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: There is nothing scripturally wrong with this. Was not the angel at the burning bush worshiped by Moses even requiring him to take off his shoes? Ex 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Yes! Of course this angel was on a mission for the LORD and acting in His behalf. But it was an angel nevertheless and Moses knew that. This is not scripturally wrong. Now for your proof texts:

    Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    Who were these created things and what was their mission? We learned who they were just a few verses earlier where it said: 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Is this the same kind of circumstances and worship we are discussing? No! Did you provide proof for your views? No!

    Colossians 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize

    Who and what are we talking about here? Non-human spirit creatures? No! Paul just spent a lot of time explaining to them about their attitude and views of the Law and the ones (messengers, angels like Moses and Aaron) that brought it to them. All this was now over and of no further value for salvation. It is remarkable how few realize that the word angels was also an endearing term for the prophets of old held in such high regard and Jews often used it in that way. Hebrews used it in that way as well. Did you provide proof for your view? No!

    Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.

    Was this the right thing to say to Satan? Yes! Does it prove that Jesus would not be worshiped by human beings? No! I already explained all this since God would authorize such worship for His Son. Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Things change. Our requirements for serving God are not restricted by past texts. At one time animal sacrifices were offered. Now we do not do that. At one time man kept the Law and its many ordinances. Now we no longer have to do that. Where is your proof that the worship of Jesus violates this text in Matthew? And the worship offered to Jesus by us as our King and Savior is not what this text is describing. It is talking about the kind of worship offered only to God where we would even risk our lives for Him.Matt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Did you provide proof for your views? No!

    Lovelylil said: Do you even read the bible? If so, how can you say it is proper to worship anyone but God?

    Be careful what you ask. It may turn out that you are asking the wrong person this question. There is much more to it than just reading the Bible. It would be nice if we understood what it was teaching us as well.

    Joseph

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi jgnat i'm not very good at tables lol so will have to address your points individually although some have already been answered by Josephmalik in a more scholar-like way than I could acheive if you check back on his post:)

    1/ Mark 10, 17-25

    The Rich Young Man
    17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

    18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' [ d ] "

    20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

    21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

    22 At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

    23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

    24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is [ e ] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

    If you look at the whole story here is a wealthy man he apparently has great wealth, So would how would a wealthy man have been then would he be with servants and his people around him dressed in the clothing of the wealthy? what then does he do? he literally runs to jesus and falls to his knees in front of him here is someone overwhelm by what he sees this is a sort of worship and all the people around jesus see the man of great wealth do this, so jesus before answering the mans question says "No one is Good except God alone" To me this is jesus showing great humility making sure that proper praise goes to God and and then he looks at the man with love so I would be surprised if jesus could feel this way if he had the motivations you apply jgnat. how could the wealthy man inspire love in jesus if he was being self-serving?

    Jesus asked the man to follow him but does this imply jesus is God to answer this I will have to put a whole chapter lol

    1 Corinthians 3
    On Divisions in the Church
    1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

    5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

    10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

    16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

    18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" [a] ; 20 and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." [b] 21 So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas [c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

    we can see follow is used to show they are all following the one purpose and the Order of authority is given us, jesus, then God, jesus is the foundation stone but God is what makes it Grow! Jesus is part of Gods building!

    So in following jesus they are following Jehovah but again it doesn't imply Jesus is God just that jesus is Gods Worker bringing us to God, his mediator.

    NEXT we discuss Satan I think Satan is many things but stupid is definitely not one of them, I think he proved his evil cleverness in the garden of eden. You say a currupt God demands worship? So are you saying here jesus is sayng "no satan I'm not gonna worship you! You should worship me?" Or is he humbly declining Satan and saying "Worship My father" in effect which fits more with Jesus's personality.

    To Jews for jesus to call himself son of God was blasphemous enough but its obvious some did think he ment God too but that was quickly nipped in the bud because jesus corrects it..and makes sure they know he is claiming to be Gods son only. I think it's very important here that he does clarify his relationship to God here.

    AS to the use of gods josephmalik I think answered that point better than I could in an earlier post on this thread lol can't find it atm.

    The point I'm making of the two witnesses is that Jesus is lying if 'one being' can be two witnesses but if your saying "oh nope the trinity means they are still separate" then I still argue because the separateness implied for them to be two witnesses means completely separate not separate parts of a whole. And again if the holy spirit was seperate person of the whole Jesus is wrong not to mention it here but if the holy spirit is just Jehovah's active force it couldn't possibly be a witness and so rightly isn't mentioned.

    Reniaa

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    Oh, boy. Another Jesus is Michael the Archangel topic. There is just no scriptural proof that gives evidence to that idea.

    These verses do not have any such verb as "calling out". Verse 16 has only two verbs, one which means "come down" and one which means "rise". No verb meaning "call out", "speak", "command", "shout", or anything else remotely similar. Here is the verse:

    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    The words translated as "command", "voice", and "trumpet" are all nouns, not verbs. Look it up.

    Why do some people struggle so hard with such a simple preposition? "With" does NOT mean "who is"! Jesus will come down to Earth (something else the Watchtower Society flatly denies, by the way) accompanied by, with, alongside of, in the company of, the archangel. (Or at least, one of the archangels.) Jesus will NOT come down to Earth AS the archangel, or as ANY angel. Jesus Christ is NOT a created angel! Jesus Christ is the Creator of ALL the angels, including the archangel(s).

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    John 14:16-21

    16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth . The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him . But you know him, for he lives with you and will be [ c ] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father , and you are in me , and I am in you . 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

    Reniaa: Who is the Counselor or "Spirit of Truth"?

    Are you trying to draw me into a conversation about holy spirit sacolton and how trinity worshipers think it can take over our bodies and have no regard to free will? indwelling ewwww

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit