First of all, since you abandoned the last discussion, I’ll consider that one wrapped and done. I hope I’ve given you food for thought regarding the spirituality of those outside the Witnesses, the power of choice, and the ability and authority of women to lead and reason.
I notice next you’ve tackled a big one, the nature of Jesus and God. Just right off, I’d like to clarify that I won’t defend the Trinitarian stance, but rather the first question of whether Jesus is fully God? This really homes in on your biggest stumbling block for not accepting any other religion but the Witnesses. So I hope I honor you by giving this topic it’s due.
And finally, we do know that whatever discussion we have here, our understanding of God and his son will necessarily be incomplete. An all-knowing creator of all we see would be too complex and too vast to adequately comprehend with our finite minds, our finite language, and by a finite bible. Yes, even the bible description will, by definition, be inadequate to fully explain God’s nature. The best we can do is speculate on the nature of God.
Scripture | Reniaa Comment | Janet Comment |
17… 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. … Mark 10:17-20 | why would jesus pick up the mans words if he actually was God? | Was Jesus intent on describing his own nature, or teaching the man? He honed in very quickly on the man’s weakness. Perhaps as the man introduced himself to the "good teacher" it was with a hint of flattery and by association they were both pretty darn close to divine. The man confirms this thought in verse 20. I suggest the man had no idea who he was talking to, he was much more intent on justifying his own righteousness. Jesus quickly pointed out that no man can claim to come close (ver. 21, 22). Note also that, besides selling his riches, Jesus instructed the man to follow him. If Jesus were simply the conduit, the son, why did Jesus not command the man to follow Jehovah? (See also Matthew 19:16-30, Luke 18:18-30) |
8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." 10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'[d]" Matthew 4:8-10 | firstly why would satan offer Jesus kingdoms and splender if he thought jesus was god indeed why would he consider such stuff would tempt god enough to worship him? and why would jesus reply that way if he was God surely he would say worship only me or something to that effect? | Why would Satan attempt to usurp God’s throne in the first place? A creature of sinful and corrupt nature is not necessarily smart. (Isaiah 14:12-14) Isn’t the whole difference between a corrupt and a divine leader is that one demands worship, and the other humbly accepts it? Examples where Jesus was worshipped or shall be worshipped: Matthew 2:2, 2:11, 14:33, 25:31, 28:9, 28:17, John 9:38, Hebrews 1:6, and 1:13. There's also a bundle in Revelation, the lamb on the throne. |
28"… I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I….but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me…John 14:28-30 | here jesus shows us that he never considers himself equal to god and obeys him. | Besides obedience, these verses in John speak to the great intimacy between Jesus and his Father. (See also John 10:49, 50) Consider also when Jesus said this, the religious, orthodox Jews were ready to stone him for blasphemy. "I and [my] Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:30-33 (KJV)) We’ll look at some of the good works that Jesus did later, and ask if any one other than God could do them? |
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. …But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." john 8:14-18 | here jesus s showing he fulfills the testimony law on two witnesses but which two? himself and his father...2 separate people testifying (not 3 in1) how could jesus say this if he was saying he was God? and in fact wouldn't jesus be giving false testimony here if he was in fact god? | I won’t discuss the trinity here; that is a separate argument. The witnesses misrepresent the concept of two distinct personalities in one godhead. If there is one God with two distinct personalities, then God certainly could testify on behalf of Himself. Besides, what Judge is over Him? |
34…Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. John 10:31-37 | here jesus is accused of being God but he corrects them showing you can call many things God and then correctly identifying himself as God's son only. definitely a wasted opportunity for jesus to confirm all that trinititarians believe. These are just a sample of scriptures I find that really show that jesus is very separate from his father and even takes every opportunity not to be seen in anyway as equal to his father but here they are up for discussion to any who disagree. | Delicious. You and I quote the same scripture to defend different points of view. In my quote above, I stopped short of Jesus’ claim that all men are gods. So let’s cover that here. But surely Jesus was not claiming that all men can be God. There is only one God, right? So how can men be gods? Jesus was quoting Psalm 82:6. Jesus was referring to the Judges of old who were called gods because they represented God in executing judgment. See also Exodus 4:17, 7:1. Before Jesus, such miraculous signs of God’s favor and power were no longer seen. Jesus’ argument was as follows: If God could call mere people "gods", why was if blasphemous for him, the Son of God, to declare himself equal to God? (I quote the commentary in my bible here, New Living Translation, Life Application Study Bible, © 1988) http://www.newlivingtranslation.com/ Note also in the Psalm that Asaph points out that even gods can’t escape death (Psalm 82:7). Jesus distinctly did. |
I have more to say, but it will take a while to pull the scriptures together. Next, I’ll talk about not only what Jesus said, but what he did, that demonstrates that he could only be God. I’ll be asking these questions:
Who sits on the throne? Only God.
Who deserves to be worshipped? God alone.
How many gods are there? Only one.
Who controls the winds and the waves? God alone.
"For you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" (NKJV) and Jesus said, (Exodus 34:14 (NKJV)
"It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service". (Matthew 4:10 NWT)