jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Do not mixup the words "obesiance" which is bowing out of respect with the word "worship".

    Lovelylil,

    You can do this yourseif. That is how you learn best. They are both the same word in the Hebrew text. The Greek word also carries these thoughts. The word Worship does not mean what you think it means anyway and you will soon find this out. Translators have in many texts determined this for you and they are not always correct. Understanding what is being said is not as neat or simple as you imply.

    Joseph

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi sacolton I'm glad of this question because it made me research the whole voice thing could it just be a random archangels voice consider the following.....

    1. Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first. Thessalonians 4:16 Greens Literal Translation

    Now lets see what Christ said when He was on Earth.

    1. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live
    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    The only voice mentioned in thess here is an archangels voice for the dead to hear but that voice to call them is the son of Gods? how can this be? unless son of God and the archangel are one and the same.

    its an interesting quandary!

    Reniaa

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    The idea of the trinity, as I understand it, does not mean that there are three different Gods. (I think several have already mentioned this point.) I believe it is more in respect to different 'facets', if you will, of the same God. I will try an analogy to see if it makes things any clearer. However, it is impossible to conceive an analogy that would perfectly describe God. For if we did, He wouldn't be God. As Joseph has said, it is impossible for our finite minds to fully comprehend all that He is.

    To my coworkers, I am 'Bob the accountant', to my friends, I am 'Bob the friend', and to my parents, I am 'Bob the son'. However, although I am uniquely something to each, none of them deny my other facets. To deny that I am an accountant (or son or friend) would be to deny a 'facet' of me that makes me who I am. Saying I am only a son and a friend leaves out part of who I am, thereby making me something other than what I am. (Btw, analogies are weak and not a very useful tool, but they do help make things clearer at times; regardless, all the proof we need is still within His Word and we should look nowhere else.)

    As such, there is God the Father who is the Creator and Father of us all. Then there is God the Son who came "...to give His life a ransom for many." (Matt. 20:28). Then there is God the Spirit who dwells within each and every believer of Him "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 Cor. 6:19-20 Then, looking to what Jesus said concerning the Holy Spirit in John 14:26, we get "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." Why would God send the Holy Spirit in the name of the Son of God (Jesus)?

    To deny God as the Son would be to leave out a critical aspect of who God is. For without the Son of God sacrificing Himself as an atonement for us, we would never be able to come to God. After we come to God the Father, through the Son, we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). It is this indwelling that let's God know that we are His. It is this indwelling that marks us as being part of the family of God (Gal. 2:20; 4:6-7). It is the adoption (Rom. 8:15, 23; 9:24; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5) into this family of God through the Son that makes it all possible. Therefore, without the Son, there is no adoption, and without the Spirit, there is no recognition. Both are necessary to come to God as a new creature, remade in His image (2 Cor. 5:17).

    Btw, in Gal. 4:6-7 it says "...the Spirit of His Son..." but Eph. 4:30 says "...the Holy Spirit of God...". Well, can that make it any clearer? The Spirit is the Son's, but it's also the Father's. Wow, I haven't come across that before, that's incredible. Sweet! And yes, the word 'Spirit' is the exact same Greek word in both instances (G4151).

    slappy

  • wobble
    wobble

    Reniaa's agenda is simply to bolster the WT's views on everything,she chooses to ignore any statement that contradicts the WT view,and ignores the work of commentators who have dealt with many of these views, I wonder why we rise to the bait,she simply wants to post the watchtower drivil on JWD. Why ?

    Love to all, (even Reniaa)

    Wobble

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    Hebrews 1:4-5 states:

    “Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”

    Being an Archangel is still an angel. Jesus was much more than that. An Archangel is just a high ranking ANGEL ... it doesn't change the fact that it is still an ANGEL.

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Reniaa's agenda is simply to bolster the WT's views on everything,she chooses to ignore any statement that contradicts the WT view,and ignores the work of commentators who have dealt with many of these views, I wonder why we rise to the bait,she simply wants to post the watchtower drivil on JWD. Why ?

    Love to all, (even Reniaa)

    Wobble

    Amen to Wobble!

    It's all been laid out in this thread. We can't help it if Reniaa doesn't have the ability to break free from WTS brainwashing. Hopefully, in time, she will learn to think, research, and speak for herself.

    Interestingly, she never responded to any of my posts. Maybe she's saying, hmmmmmm.....

    Until then, I'm pretty much done with this particular thread.

    StAnn

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    The point I was trying to make was that obeisance/worship, as per Peter, does not go to man. Peter said this.

    IssacAustiin,

    I knew that is what you meant. But Peter did not say that obeisance/worship does not go to any man or just man the way you interpret the verse. He said that he was also a man. Also like what kind of man? Also like Cornelius who would not be worshiped in a spiritual way. Simple. Now this is not the case with Jesus. He was under the authority of God to perform a service for Him just as angels did before Him. Not the same thing at all. It takes more than just reading words and then applying them to everyone. Jesus was a man 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Since Jesus was a man and this man was worshiped/obesance your theory and interpretation goes out the window.

    Joseph

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Another Jesus is Michael the Archangel topic. There is just no scriptural proof that gives evidence to that idea.

    Sacolton,

    Of course there is. It was discussed at length here on JWD a long time ago. It was another long thread that ended with Daniel chapter 12. No need to go over it again. Who resurrects? When? All things that apply to Michael and Jesus both prophetically and literally. Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    As to what you think the english translation means or proves by its nouns and verbs Gill's commentary said: Ver. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, &c.] Not by proxy, or by representatives; not by the ministry of angels, as on Mount Sinai; nor by the ministers of the word, as under the Gospel dispensation; nor by his spirit, and the discovery of his love and grace, in which sense he descends in a spiritual manner, and visits his people; but in person, in his human nature, in soul and body; in like manner as he went up to heaven will he descend from thence, so as to be visible, to be seen and heard of all: he will come down from the third heaven, whither he was carried up, into which he was received, and where he is retained until the time of the restitution of all things, and from whence the saints expect him: and this descent will be

    with a shout; the word here used is observed by many to signify such a noise or shout as is made either by mariners, when they pull and row together; and shout to direct and encourage one another; or to an army with the general at the head of it, when about to undertake some considerable action, to enter on a battle, and make the onset; Christ will now appear as the King of kings, and Lord of lords, as the Judge of the whole earth, attended with the host, or armies of heaven, and the shout of a king will be among them: perhaps the same is intended, as by the voice of a great multitude, as the voice of many waters, and of mighty thunderings upon the coming of Christ, the destruction of antichrist, and the marriage of the Lamb, in #Re 19:1,6,7,14,15. The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions render it, "in," or "with command"; and the Arabic version, "with his own government," or "authority"; that is, he shall descend, either by the command of his Father, as man and Mediator, having authority from him, as the son of man, to execute judgment; or with his commanding power and authority over the mighty angels, that shall descend with him: it follows,

    with the voice of the archangel; so Michael is called, in #Jude 1:9 with which compare #Re 12:7 and who perhaps is no other than Christ himself, who is the head of all principality and power; and the sense be, that Christ shall descend from heaven with a voice, or shall then utter such a voice, as will show him to be the archangel; or as the Syriac version renders it, "the head," or "prince of angels"; and which whether, it will be an articulate voice, such as was expressed at the grave of Lazarus; or a violent clap of thunder, which is the voice of God; or the exertion of the power of Christ, is not certain: it is added,

    As the saying goes: close enough for government work.

    Joseph

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    reniaa

    I didn't think this was that hard to answer.

    What came down from heaven? A human? An angel? A human/angel hybred?

    reniaa

    I have an honest question for you.

    In the book of John Chapter 6 Jesus calls himself "the bread that came down from heaven"

    John 6:31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, just as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" 32 Hence Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, Moses did not give YOU the bread from heaven, but my Father does give YOU the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 Therefore they said to him: "Lord, always give us this bread." 35 Jesus said to them: "I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. 36 But I have said to YOU, YOU have even seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; 38 because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day." 41 Therefore the Jews began to murmur at him because he said: "I am the bread that came down from heaven" ; 42 and they began saying: "Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it that now he says, 'I have come down from heaven'?" 43 In answer Jesus said to them: "Stop murmuring among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by Jehovah.' Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me. 46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father. 47 Most truly I say to YOU, He that believes has everlasting life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 YOUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven ; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world."

    If Jesus was just a man, what came down from heaven?

    D Dog
  • Slappy
    Slappy

    Joseph joseph...

    Who resurrects? When? All things that apply to Michael and Jesus both prophetically and literally.

    Can an angel die in the sense that Christ died?

    Btw, why are you now arguing that Jesus = Michael = angel when a few posts ago you argued my claim that Jesus was not a man?

    Oh and I noticed that you said this in another post: If Jesus was a man, he would not be able to be the sacrifice that was required to save us.

    Did you make this up or did you get it from someone else that was also confused on this requirement for the sacrifice? Most men would not qualify but Jesus did. Why? Because God was His Father and not Adam. This human Jesus, the literal creator of the human race in the beginning would now become the only human begotten by God personally. That is why the human Jesus was: (Trumpet blasts please) the only begotten Son of God. Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. . . Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. . . Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. . . Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. This son, yes this human son being discussed was the exception.

    Joseph

    You're not confused are you?

    So Jesus is an angel, but He's also a man. Actually you'll make Him to be anything but who He really is, that being God.

    You really are confused aren't you. I'm sorry.

    slappy

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