Why does an atheist have to disprove anything?

by digderidoo 69 Replies latest jw friends

rmt1

A few posters are trying to argue against creationists and theists and are investing an embarrassing amount of emotional energy. Please invest in an extremely small exercise of the fingers and Google "Joseph Bulbulia evolution religion" and "James W. Dow evolution religion". I swear that if you have at least two brain cells this will soften much of your gall. I have come to regard religious types as distant cousins in the whole homo sapiens project. I don't need to be angry with them.
zensim

We know now that a man can read Goethe or Rilke in the evening, that he can play Bach and Schubert, and go to his day's work at Auschwitz in the morning. -George Steiner, professor and writer (b. 1929)
Belief is an important factor in all this, but (as much as I abhor religion) - it is too simple to just use the argument "look what has been done in the name of religion".
I am with Bring_the_Light. Whilst important to learn from history, as much as I see athiesm as an evolutionary necessity, we are in fact choosing to explore the future, the questions, the mystery - together. What you choose to call the gaps in knowledge is your personal preference.
To the athiests I say: It is very neat to say to theists 'prove your god', but if you really spend time individually with a theist, you will discover whether they believe in a personal god or a god of reason and order. One is a closed, finite god which is made in man's image, the latter is an openness which allows for as much learning and scepticism as the agnostics and athiests claim.
In choosing the words 'prove' and 'disprove' the issue is really "how far/willing is the person prepared to go to defend/support their belief?" and comes back to a question of ethics. Discover and explore might be more creative words to use whilst we also explore intention and expectation :)
jaguarbass

If you drag a chain or tail around some one is going to yank it.
Claiming to be an atheist is as much a chain or tail as being a Christian.
Stating a position is like placing a chip on your sholder.
When you do that someone will try to knock it off.
Especially in a place like this.
I personally like to see both sides do their best to make their point.
Because my jury is coming in about 50/ 50. Not enough to hang someone in a capital case.
Caedes

Someone earlier stated that they didn't feel they had to prove their belief in god, whilst this is entirely correct what does that contribute to a discussion on the subject at hand. You are free to believe whatever you like and I am not going to be knocking on your door trying to convert you or anyone. So what is the intention of the comment? To try and stifle debate? After all we all know that atheists cannot disprove god, atheists and and theists alike. Any of the claims I have ever read about 'dis-proving' god are in fact only dis-proving a particular claim made about god.
Since we can all agree that god cannot be dis-proven then what is the point in stating that you are entitled to believe what you wish without evidence and without making an explicit statement of what you do believe. How on earth do you expect people to be able to dis-prove your beliefs if you haven't shared them for discussion. If you don't wish to share (and I can understand why you might not wish to) then what is the point of your interjection into a discussion of atheism?
A few posters are trying to argue against creationists and theists and are investing an embarrassing amount of emotional energy.
For as long as theism has a grip on politics and education then atheists have the responsibility to question theism as vigourously as required.
BurnTheShips

I realize I've already responded to this, but I don't think my previous response was adequate. This is literally one of the stupidest remarks I've ever read. Was it atheists that flew airplanes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? Was it atheists that released poison gas in the Tokyo subways? Was it atheists that burned witches in Salem? Was it atheists that justified slavery with the Holy Scriptures? Was it atheists that slaughtered tens of thousands in the Crusades? Is it atheists that practice female circumcision? Honor killings of girls because they have been raped? Spread Aids by denying condoms to the third world?
You are a total moron.
And you come in second place.
Religious belief is not synonymous with good behavior, but neither is the absence of belief. Granted the history of religious people is a history fraught with failures but you can write the history of anything as a story of injustice. First you decide what you hate, and then you gather evidence for its hatefulness. Since metaphorically speaking man is a fallen creature there is always much nastiness to be found.
BTS
BurnTheShips

“I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.” -Adolf Hitler
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” -Adolph Hitler
You seem to imply that Hitler's Catholicism is what led him to the evil he did. So he killed all those people and started a war because of Christianity?
Hitler said what he needed to say to sway the population. Christianity was, when looked at cynically, simply a tool to spread the Nazi message. The things that Hitler said when he was trying to get into power and trying to consolidate his power after receiving the Chancellorship are very different than what he said afterwards once the reins were firmly in his hands. There is a difference between what Hitler told the masses and what he would say privately.
Here are other Hitler quotes from "Hitler Table Talk":
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... ....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)
14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... ....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)
14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
BTS
Galileo

Religious belief is not synonymous with good behavior, but neither is the absence of belief. Granted the history of religious people is a history fraught with failures but you can write the history of anything as a story of injustice. First you decide what you hate, and then you gather evidence for its hatefulness. Since metaphorically speaking man is a fallen creature there is always much nastiness to be found.
I actually agree with your point, but I wasn't arguing that religion must equal evil behavior, or that atheism equals the absence of such. The point I was responding to was:
you are kidding. if it wasnt for believers this earth would be in anarchy
My point was actually virtually the same as yours. Believers have not created a world without anarchy, quite the contrary. Unlike the Hitler arguement, all the examples I gave were evils perpetrated by believers because of their beliefs. I believe Nobel Prize winner Steven Weinberg made too broad a statement when he said: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." However, there is certainly a lot of truth in that statement. Personally I believe the world would be much less anarchic if everyone on earth replaced their religion with rational thinking.
Galileo

You seem to imply that Hitler's Catholicism is what led him to the evil he did. So he killed all those people and started a war because of Christianity?
Once again Burn, your knee is jerking a little too quickly. I left Hitler out of my original list because I don't believe he was motivated by religion. My remark about Hitler was in response to realone implying he was an atheist:
um did you forget about Hitler? all that were killed here out number what you speak of
I was merely pointing out that Hitler was not an atheist. Nothing more.
BurnTheShips

I believe Nobel Prize winner Steven Weinberg made too broad a statement when he said: " Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. "
I would modify that quote if I could, it is not too broad, it is too narrow:
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes ~~religion~~ a convincing ideology.
Communism ostensibly existed to help people, we know how that turned out.
When people think they can do evil things to help good causes is when we see this sort of thing.
BTS
hillary_step

Burn,
For goodness sakes read a persons posts CAREFULLY before you respond.
Both your responses above have NOTHING to do with the original points made by these posters. My analogy of your being an 'intellectual pin ball' is exactly illustrated by the way you rushed to judgement above entirely missing the points at issue.
This sort of behavior just clutters up these threads for no good purpose.
Come now, you are capable of better things than this.
HS

Why does an atheist have to disprove anything?

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