A STUNNINGLY simple question about JOHN 3:16 "For God so Loved the world."

by Terry 384 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Perry

    Terry ..... you tortured soul.

  • fifi40

    I too am agnostic but were I a believer my answer would be something like this.

    Firstly our view of God, our questioning of God and our criticism can only be done from the perspective of an imperfect human being. One which judges whilst imperfect, whose understanding is limited and whose opinion is tainted by our personal life experience. If there is a God who is responsible for the creation of all that we as humans experience, then his intelligence and undertsanding must reasonably be far superior to ours. So it is similar to a child in an infant class trying to comprehend the mind and method of a mathematical genius.

    As for why he loves man in your inital post on this thread you said 'there is no rational or just basis for the love of man or mercy'. When has love ever been considered rational. We as humans love because we love..........it often has little to do with being rational.

    Also as humans when we become parents it is usual for us to love our offspring with a 'we would give our lives' type of love. If our kids misbehave, get themselves into trouble etc we dont stop loving them but we may punish them or withdraw some privledge. If the results of their behaviour are taken out of our hands we might disagree/agree with what happens to them; we might feel sorry for them; it might break our hearts but the likelihood is we will still love them.

    Can we as humans hate the actions of people we love?

    Can we as humans punish those we love for wrongdoing?

    Can we as humans agree with punishment given to those we love by outside sources?

    Do we as humans ever withhold privledges from those we love?

    Do we as humans ever love another human being that others choose not to love?

    Does this mean God is or is not capable of loving man?

    Terry if their is a 'God' then our only reference to him are books that men wrote; imperfect men at that.

    How are any of us qualified to question a being, that would be by the very evidence of what it is alledged he has created far, far superior in every way to us and expect to be satisfied with the answers?

  • quietlyleaving

    here's an interesting definition of agnosticism from wiki

    Enlightenment philosopher David Hume contended that meaningful statements about the universe are always qualified by some degree of doubt. [4] The fallibility of human beings means that they cannot obtain absolute certainty except in trivial cases where a statement is true by definition (as in, "all bachelors are unmarried" or "all triangles have three angles"). All rational statements that assert a factual claim about the universe that begin "I believe that ...." are simply shorthand for, "Based on my knowledge, understanding, and interpretation of the prevailing evidence, I tentatively believe that...." For instance, when one says, "I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald shot John F. Kennedy," one is not asserting an absolute truth but a tentative belief based on interpretation of the assembled evidence. Even though one may set an alarm clock prior to the following day, believing that the sun will rise the next day, that belief is tentative, tempered by a small but finite degree of doubt (the sun might be destroyed; the earth might be shattered in collision with a rogue asteroid or that person might die and will never see the sun rise.) ," "infinite in intellect and will and in every perfection" [5] but, the agnostic would assert, these terms only underscore the inadequacy of our mental equipment to understand so vast, ephemeral and elusive a concept.

    Many mainstream believers in the West embrace an agnostic creed. As noted above, for instance, Roman Catholic dogma about the nature of God contains many strictures of agnosticism. An agnostic who believes in God despairs of ever fully comprehending what it is in which he believes. But some believing agnostics assert that that very absurdity strengthens their belief rather than weakens it.[6]

    does this describe how you view things Terry? just curous.

  • R.Crusoe

    Fifi - your position seems to me to be one which has elements of contradiction!

    If all we can think is far less perfect than gods thoughts - we should ignore all thought at the expense of those some HUMAN says are gods thoughts!

    The above negates the whole point of having a human brain and so god should simply have created us automotons aka, amongst others, as JWs!

    So what is god playing at?????

    Terry - the torture in your soul Perry refers to seems to me a sincere attempt to get beneath the skin of why so many humans pin all their living on a Book of books selected from ancient writings to fit a recipe of imposed human reality of control and spirituality and enforced justice!

    I still fail to beat the Egyptian notion of any god being a god of perfect observation and experiment who has left the whole network of human souls to do as they will and will in due course take note of motive and heart conditions which prevail in the individual up to death!

    Even this model seems flawed when you consider the following as an unfait test of two humans spirituality:

    A child dies and has done no error so will get eternal life even though their heart has not been tested!

    An adult has scoured a century of loves and sorrows and is rejected for some errors along the way or because their heart is more damaged goods -or may be accepted fro preserving compassion amidst crisis!

    So what god is playing at is ????????

    If there is a measuring rod for life after death wont it be hilarious if the guys who went out and had fun, loves, wild times and being generous when appropriate are there in the afterlife running things and god says they knew how to get in touch with how I created them - humans with feelings to explore and harm none?

    But then you always have the fact that god has played an unfair test again for those who look like gods and those who struggle to get any attention due to looks of life!

    So what is god playing at???????

  • fifi40


    Just to qualify, what I wrote are not my own personal thoughts but rather some kind of defense to the questions asked about 'Why God loved Man and on what basis'.

    Me personally, I think I am an agnostic who wavers on being an atheist..............so I could more comfortably throw out a similar question to Terry's. I have a very difficult time of reconciling there being a God who loves man and yet stands by as mankind suffers in some truly dreadful ways.

    But if there is a God and he claims to love mankind, how could we be accepting of this. What I wrote is the closest answer I could come up with.

    I agree there are elements of contradiction, and this is why I remain and agnostic wavering on atheism.

  • Perry
    In the long run, according to scripture the devil does pay above everyone else. He dies (permanently), and everyone else gets to live.

    Restrangled...... that's a pure WT lie from hell. Look:

    Revelation 20:

    ...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ....11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell F32 delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    The only resurrection that most people are going to get is one to stand trial and face the vast amount of incriminating evidence that will be presented against them.

    Mt 5:21 - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

    Mt 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Mt 7:2 - For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    Mt 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    Mt 11:22 - But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

    Mt 11:24 - But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

    Mt 12:18 - I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

    Mt 12:20 - A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

    Mt 12:36 - But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

    Mt 12:41 - The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Mt 12:42 - The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

    Mr 6:11 - And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    Lu 10:14 - But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

    Lu 11:31 - The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

    Lu 11:32 - The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Joh 5:22 - For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    Joh 5:27 - And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    Joh 5:30 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge:

    Joh 7:24 - Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    Joh 8:16 - And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

    Joh 9:39 - And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

    Joh 12:31 - Now is the judgment of this world:

    Joh 16:8 - And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    Vain ponderings and ridicously silly inquires of how and what rational God used to love his enemies will not be tolerated as each person is forced to shut their mouth and observe the vast amount of damning evidence that will be presented against them at their trial.

    Rom. 3: 19
    Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them .......: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    After doing time in Hell.... awaiting their trial....... This is the resurrection that most people can look forward to.

  • R.Crusoe

    What love from god Perry?

    It's enough to make you want you crawl back into the womb that bore you and into oblivion!

  • Perry
    What love from god Perry?

    This love:

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  • R.Crusoe

    Yeah - but its a one choice 'no choice' enforced by all the fears of the previous!

    That is its problem!!

  • BurnTheShips
    Terry loathes the stupidity of people who support the deity he questions. His 'questions' have long since been satisfied for himself; he now seeks to inspire others to the same loathing of the vast majority of human minds that he experiences.

    I see that too. Is Terry still turning in a timeslip? I got an unsolicited message today from an atheist on this board explaining why they proslytize so stridently.

    Surely a belief system arising purely from humanity cannot contravene that which is humane and sustain itself, can it? If God arose from humanity, then human nature is expressed in God and is as moral or immoral as any human, including you. Your "clear moral norm" arises from nothing substantial.


    Some individuals here are blind in one eye, and wish to poke out everyone else's second good eye. Some people are tone-deaf, or have no rhythm, so they want to burn the sheet music and smash the instruments.

    You remind me of some reading I am doing lately on Miguel Unamuno (an atheist BTW):

    We have remarked before that the parasites which live in the intestines of higher animals, feeding upon the nutritive juices which these animals supply, do not need either

    to see or hear, and therefore for them the visible and audible world does not exist. And if they possessed a certain degree of consciousness and took account of the fact

    that the animal at whose expense they live believed in a world of sight and hearing, they would perhaps deem such belief to be due merely to the extravagance of its

    imagination. And similarly there are social parasites, as Mr. A.J. Balfour admirably observes, who, receiving from the society in which they live the motives of their

    moral conduct, deny that belief in God and the other life is a necessary foundation for good conduct and for a tolerable life, society having prepared for them the spiritual

    nutriment by which they live. An isolated individual can endure life and live it well and even heroically without in any sort believing either in the immortality of the soul or

    in God, but he lives the life of a spiritual parasite.



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