A STUNNINGLY simple question about JOHN 3:16 "For God so Loved the world."

by Terry 384 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AuldSoul

  gopher: Also, why are atheists criticized for questioning the validity of certain beliefs about deities such as the Bible's God? If God really created with us a brain capable of reasoning on things, surely that God would expect us to use it instead of just accepting what was written in some book or what some religious body told us.

  Do you actually believe Terry's opening post was designed to question the validity of a certain belief about a deity?

  Terry loathes the stupidity of people who support the deity he questions. His 'questions' have long since been satisfied for himself; he now seeks to inspire others to the same loathing of the vast majority of human minds that he experiences.

  Surely that God would expect exactly that, gopher. Which is why Terry's easily discernable outrage is so pathetic, really.

  We, who have been given a brain capable of reason, whether we were given it by chance, or by God, or by an Extraterrestrial Terraformational Committee (which is what 'Icthstgy Gh'phastya Ek'el-Kjon loosely translates to ), or by some means we have yet to discover, WE, as a species, audaciously settled our rational minds on belief in Gods. Disbelief in God is a rather recent phenomenon, and some, like Terry, wish to hurry that along as quickly as possible. For some inexplicable reason people who believe in evolution, want evolution to speed up far and away beyond its demonstrated capacity on this issue of belief in deity.

  So, who is malcontent with the nature of man, those who accept belief in deity as our ancestors did for many millenia, or those who rage against belief in deity? Self-loathing is a pitiable thing.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  BreakingAway

  God didn't comdemn men to lives filled with frustration. He orchestrated the means by which mankind could receive clemency from its self-inflicted frustrations.

  Utter nonsense.If I threw a man into a pit (leading to frustration)and then dangled a rope over the edge and told him to reach it (orchestrated the means for escape), did I still not throw him into the pit ? How can all men who were inflicted by sin through no fault of their own be 'self-inflicted' ? If one believes the bible, it is God himself who admits putting man in this position.

  "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, ..." Romans 8:20
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  Deputy Dog

  B A

  "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, ..." John 8:20

  That's a strange translation

  Here's the NASB

  John 8:20

  These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.
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  BreakingAway

  Indeed it is ! I meant Romans.It's now been corrected.Thanks for catching that.
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  AuldSoul

  hamilcarr: Our immorality permitted all the atrocities, but since I DO cherish individual's lives, no matter their background, I have a clear moral norm according to which I act.

  To put Terry's question to you: On what basis do you cherish individual lives? Human nature?

  Surely a belief system arising purely from humanity cannot contravene that which is humane and sustain itself, can it? If God arose from humanity, then human nature is expressed in God and is as moral or immoral as any human, including you. Your "clear moral norm" arises from nothing substantial.

  Do we moralize in favor of the Greater Good, that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? Is that how we show pure morals? And how can we do so without omniscience, to know what will be as a result of any action or inaction? I challenge based on Giskard's dilemma, which, as Asimov wrote it, resulted in his undoing. We cannot know the eventual result of any action or inaction, therefore, we cannot know what is for the greater good.

  Your "clear moral norm" is an invention of your mind and is, as with all humans, inextricably paired with your "clear moral abnorm"; that immorality peculiarly yours that you don't talk about nearly as much in polite social circles.

  Respecfully,
  AuldSoul
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  trevor

  Hamilcarr: I strongly disagree. It's not because God is exposed as a (social) construction, that it suddenly becomes fiction. On the contrary, the edifice becomes more real than ever before.

  Only in the human mind. Hence the treachery of our mind which has come to mistakenly accept symbols as reality.

  Reality really exists. Thoughts about reality exist - but only in the mind.

  Hence the world we live in where thoughts and beliefs are confused with reality.
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  AuldSoul

  "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, ..." Romans 8:20

  Way to take the verse out of context, BreakingAway.

  Contextually, the "futility" being referred to was not sin, but the Law of Moses. The entire argument from Romans 3-11 was about the fleshly descendancy from Abraham and about the law of Moses which was a law to flesh which required living perfectly in accord with flesh. Seeking salvation either through that fleshly descendancy or through that law which was "weak through the flesh" was a futile exercise, but one that ended in hope instead of disappointment for the reasons the writer clearly demonstrated.

  God did not cast mankind into a sinful state and did not cause mankind's frustration; that was a good attempt to pretend that He had done so, but one that ended in disappointment.
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  Homerovah the Almighty

  Thoughts of reality can confuse it, on the other hand evidence can prove it.

  My imagination tells me that no one in human history has yet to crack the spiritual code, I wonder if anyone ever will ?
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  BreakingAway

  "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, ..." Romans 8:20

  Way to take the verse out of context, BreakingAway.

  Contextually, the "futility" being referred to was not sin, but the Law of Moses. The entire argument from Romans 3-11 was about the fleshly descendancy from Abraham and about the law of Moses which was a law to flesh which required living perfectly in accord with flesh. Seeking salvation either through that fleshly descendancy or through that law which was "weak through the flesh" was a futile exercise, but one that ended in hope instead of disappointment for the reasons the writer clearly demonstrated.

  God did not cast mankind into a sinful state and did not cause mankind's frustration; that was a good attempt to pretend that He had done so, but one that ended in disappointment.

  While the Law certainly did subject them to a measure of futility that is not the thrust of what is being discussed in Romans 8 and you know it.It's not my objective to argue scripture here, because I've had enough of that in my lifetime.However, I will go into a bit more detail regarding the application, because that scripture goes much deeper than the Mosaic law and deals with the deterioration of man and all of creation.

  According to the scriptures man is in a state of decay, having come to be that way as a result of sin.The world of mankind is therefore in a state of "bondage", a captive.In fact, all of creation hopes to be "set free" from corruption, "groaning and being in pain together",the futile nature of existence currently experienced.Man sinned, all of creation fell (suffered).

  Was it not God who cursed the ground ? Who increased the birth pangs of the woman ? That has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law, does it ? It didn't even exist at such a time.Paul talks about a number of different "laws", including sin which wars against man so that even when he wishes to do what is right he is not able.

  All of creation was subjected to 'futility' because it is unable to live up to its potential for which it was created.No matter how hard man tries he cannot free himself from this circumstance, this bondage.The hope, once again, is to be "set free" and thus all of creation eagerly waits for the "revealing of the sons of God."

  Creation did NOT have a choice in the matter and thusly was "subjected to futility".God himself cursed the earth and put all things in bondage by what HE set in order.To say that this text is referring to the Mosaic Law is an extreme injustice and does not even come close to highlighting struggle of all creation and its tragic resultant futility.
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  BreakingAway

  Looks like the thing went wonky and made a double post !