by Sirona 90 Replies latest jw friends
Sirona
Conversion is a work of God, not of man. It's not up to me to convert you or anyone else. To be a Christian you need to be chosen by God.
Maybe you would like to convert me. Why is paganism better than Christianity?
So if you are Christian.....what things do you think I need to consider?
Does God's word speak to you?
To be a Christian you need to be chosen by God.
How special.
Hmmm I don't exactly qualify as a christian although I do agree completely with the message Jesus gave .The book of thomas is quite intresting.
I've studied Buhdda, Hinduism , Muslims ,Jews .Christianity even a couple of wierd Christian sects Nihlism , Elitism, Humanism , Bull jism and just about any kind of ISM imaginable and have come to a conclusion, ,,,,
They are like the sides of a box that has instuctions on how to open it written on all sides and no side by itself can tell you how to get it open
They all point to the same thing but in incomplete ways , Kabbalah isn't actually a religion allthough it is in a lot of hebrew texts . It is more of a method to understand the nature of a human Just as Buhddism is not really a religion as it is also a method to understanding our Humaness
I found this article..although the original site no longer exists, google caught a picture of it. I am not promoting it either way...just as a matter of interest. I thought once...could a christian be pagan and vice-versa? could an antheist be pagan and vice-versa?
The following series of articles will address the common charge that Christianity and Catholicism in particular, plagarized its doctrines and practices from other religions. First, some introductory notes.
What Hath Hislop Wrought?
Though atheists love this "Christian plagarism" theory and use it a lot, one of its influential proponents was, ironically, a Christian: the Reverend Alexander Hislop. He was pastor of the East Free Church in Arbroath, Scotland, during the mid-nineteenth century, and the author of The Two Babylons: The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and his Wife, a deeply-flawed book which, unfortunately, remains in print today.
Unlike the anti-Christian skeptics, Hislop did not wish to disprove Christianity as a whole - only Catholicism (as is obvious from its subtitle). His strategy was to look for any "similarities", no matter how slim, between pagan myth and Catholic belief. Once he found something promising, he offered it as "proof" of his outrageous theory that Catholicism is actually the pagan religion of ancient Babylon masquerading as Christianity!
Oddly, however, he did not limit himself to pagan parallels of beliefs peculiar to Catholicism. Hislop claimed that pagan "triads" of deities were the real "trinity" worshipped by Catholics (a notion refuted in a Is the Trinity Pagan?), that the Catholic "Jesus" was a thinly-disguised "dying god" named Tammuz (refuted in "Dying Gods"? and in Do Catholics Worship Another Jesus?), and that the Dove in Catholic art is not a symbol of the Holy Spirit, but of the "goddess Semeramis"!
Now, all Christians believe in the biblical doctrines of the Trinity and the saving death of Christ, and many use a dove to symbolize the Holy Spirit, as does Sacred Scripture (Matthew 3:16). So Hislop's arguments, if true (they are not), would be damning to Christianity itself - and to the New Testament! Yet that has not kept some anti-Catholic Fundamentalists from naively reading, reprinting and selling The Two Babylons in their bookstores. It has also become the basis for many scurrilous anti-Catholic broadsides, most notably those of one Jack T. Chick.
Hislop himself did not seem to believe that his work in any way refuted the whole Christian faith. In his twisted view, Protestants worshipped the true Jesus and believed in the truths of the Bible, while Catholics "really" worshipped Babylonian gods and participated in ancient pagan rites, regardless of what they said or thought, or whether their beliefs had any biblical parallels.
This illogical and ahistorical idea is still just a step away from discrediting all of Christianity. Indeed, some of the same arguments Hislop used have been used by atheists, anti-missionaries, Muslims and various other detractors in an attempt to disprove Christianityas a whole, not just Catholicism. His theory has even led to the formation of the Noachides, a movement of ex-Evangelicals who have abandoned Christianity as "pagan" and embraced a quasi-Jewish observance of the Noachide Laws.
It's easy to see how such a flawed theory could, if taken to its logical conclusion, ultimately lead to a rejection of Christ and Christianity. As Our Lord Himself said, "By their fruits you shall know them..."
One Explanation: Myth becomes Reality
The "plagiarized paganism" argument was very popular during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Certain British Christians at the time, such as G.K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis, countered it by arguing that Christians did not steal these ideas from paganism, rather the pagans derived them long ago from an ancient revelation from God.
You see, the Old Testament mentions certain "righteous Gentiles"; men not descendended from Abraham who, nonetheless, sought and served the One True God. Enoch, Noah, Job, Jethro the priest of Midian (Exodus 2:16), and Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18:20) are all such men. Though he's not mentioned in Scripture, some think that Zarathustra, the founder of Zoroastrianism, might also have been in this number, since many scholars believe he was a monotheist (though Zoroastrianism later became dualistic, it has recently returned to monotheism).
The One True God, the Creator of all peoples, revealed Himself to any sincere seeker with a heart open to Him, even if that person dwelt in a heathen land. Perhaps the Lord even revealed something of His plan of future redemption to these righteous Gentiles, so that they, like His Chosen People, could have faith in the coming Messiah. C. S. Lewis suggests that God may have sent them prophetic visions and "good dreams", in which they foresaw Christ's future birth from a Virgin, His Death and Resurrection Maybe they then shared these wonderful revelations with others, who passed them on to others, till these visions became part of the folklore of the people.
Of course, as stories get passed from generation to generation, they tend to change. Thus God Incarnate mutated into a pagan "dying god", His human Mother was convoluted into a "mother goddess", the details of his death became twisted and more fantastic, until each pagan mythology finally possessed a different version of a "dying god" legend. When Christ finally came, it was as though the myths of paganism suddenly became reality. The long-awaited Event at the core of these myths finally occurred; God became Man to redeem us, fulfilling both the Messianic prophecies of Scripture and the "good dreams" of rightous Gentiles.
Could this explain certain similarities between pagan mythology and Christian doctrine? Since such righteous Gentiles did exist, and God could certainly have revealed His plan to them, this is certainly within the realm of possibility. This theory is also appealling in that it may partly explain some of the "good and true" elements found in natural religions. However, as we shall see in the article "Dying Gods"?, the "pagan plagiarism" charges which Chesterton and Lewis tried to answer were largely inaccurate in the first place.
The Bible and Paganism
When used by anti-missionaries to "discredit" Christianity, or by Fundamentalist Christians to "refute" Catholicism, the "pagan plagiarism" argument is truly a double-edged sword. For alleged "parallels" can be found, not only between Catholicism and paganism, but between the Old Testament religion and paganism as well!
The Faith of the ancient Israelites had some elements in common with the surrounding pagan religions. For instance, the Hebrews called the One True God El, which is the word for "God" in the Semetic languages. Many of YHWH's titles incorporate this word, such as "El Shaddai" (God Almighty) and El Elyon (God Most High). Yet El was also the name of a pagan deity - the primary god in the Canaanite pantheon, considered the father of the gods and creator of the earth!
Sacred Scripture depicts the LORD riding on the clouds (Psalm 68:5, 34; 104:3; Isaiah 19:1). This was a common depiction of the pagan god Baal; in fact, one of Baal's titles was "Rider on the Clouds". There are also striking similarities between Psalm 104 and the "Hymn to the Sun" composed by Pharoah Akenaton, the monotheistic Pharoah of Egypt who worshipped only the sun-god Aton. Many scholars believe that the psalm may have even been patterned on that hymn. Similarly, the Song of Songs bears a strong similarity with ancient Egyptian love poetry.
When God established His covenant with Abraham, they actually enter into a suzerainty treaty of the type commonly used by pagans in the Ancient Near East. As the sign of this covenant, the LORD commanded Abraham and all his male offspring to undergo circumcision, a procedure which was common to many pagan religions in that area. Animal sacrifices - also commanded by God - occurred in the surrounding heathen nations as well.
So if we're going to reject Catholicism because of certain correspondences with paganism, we must logically reject Christianity as a whole and even Judaism for the same reason! A double-edged sword indeed!
Do the facts above bother you? Do they shake your faith? They shouldn't! When God deals with the human race, He comes to us where we are and uses our language, symbols, poetic expressions and cultural practices to reveal Himself to us and establish a relationship with us. He doesn't "wipe the slate clean" and start from scratch, rejecting all that is truly human about us and our cultures. Though the Lord certainly condemns sinful pagan activities such as idolatry, murder and sexual immorality, He does not necessarily condemn all the elements of non-Jewish and non-Christian cultures. There are some elements of truth in every human religion, like the flickers of lighted matches in the darkness. Rather than blowing out these tiny flames of truth, He uses them to help light the great torch of the True Faith.
Does the fact that the God of Israel shares a name with a pagan deity prove that the Jews stole their concept of God from the Canaanites? No, for "El" was the common word for "God" in both cultures; thus it is not surprising that two deities might share that name. As for the image of the LORD riding on clouds, the LORD and Baal are clearly depicted as rivals in Scripture (see I Kings 18); so this is perhaps an attempt to "supplant" Baal. The sacred writers were basically saying: "the LORD is the real Rider on the Clouds"! Ditto with Psalm 104; so what if it was copied in part from a hymn to Aton? The Lord is the true Creator, not Aton, thus the creation hymn applies to God much more than to the sun!
There's nothing wrong with taking concepts falsely applied to pagan divinities and rightly applying them to the One True God. Remember how St. Paul, in preaching to the Athenians, cited an altar dedicated to "the unknown god" - whom he identified with the One True God (Acts 17:22-32)? Surely the Athenians did not intend to worship the LORD with that altar; it was set up to worship an unknown pagan deity. Yet Paul used it as a springboard to tell them about the One God, Who was truly "unknown" to them!
Paul goes on to quote two pagan writers: Epimenides of Knossos and Aratus of Soli (vs 28). He presents their words as apt descriptions of the true God, even though they themselves were writing about Zeus! St. Paul must have reasoned that their words were more truly spoken of the Most High God than of any pagan deity; even as the inspired psalmists believed that qualities falsely attributed to Baal were more appropriate to the LORD.
Also recall how St. Paul argued that Christians who were strong in their faith may eat food that had been offered to heathen idols, since they recognize that the idols don't really exist (1 Cor. 8:1-8). He goes on to say we should be careful not to scandalize our weaker brethren who think it is wrong (vvs. 9-13), but the very fact that he allows it shows that Christians need not be hyper-scrupulous about everything associated with paganism.
I suppose if Hislop lived back then, he would have probably accused St. Paul of closet paganism because he described God in terms used to describe Zeus and said it may be okay under certain circumstances to eat pagan sacrifices. "Sure, St. Paul may say he's a Christian, but he's really a Nimrod-worshipper in disguise!" See where Hislop's faulty logic ultimately leads?
As long as we don't commit idolatry or immorality, it is okay to carefully appropriate certain neutral expressions and customs which originated in non-Christian cultures by giving them Christian significance. As pagans can become baptized Christians, so certain pagan practices which are not sinful in and of themselves can be "baptized" and become Christian practices.
More Pagan Adapations
If the righteous patriarch Joseph could accept the Egyptian practice of embalming/mummification for both himself and his father Jacob (Genesis 49:29-50:3), despite its pagan origin, and if the ancient Israelites could build their Tabernacle using gold from Egypt (some of which had undoubtably came from Egyptian idols) then why can't Christians take a symbol used by pagans and imbue it with Christian meaning, to the glory of the One True God?
For instance, both Christians and Jews have been using calendars for centuries to mark the holy days they celebrate to the glory of God. But calendars were first developed among the pagans, based on their observation of the motions of the sun, moon and planets (the same origin as astrology!). On both the Julian and Gregorian calendars, the names of most of the months are of pagan origin:
The days of the week were named for the seven "planets" in ancient astrology, which were in turn named for pagan gods:
The base-twelve division of time into hours, minutes and seconds also has its roots in ancient Babylon, a pagan nation. Yet we don't hear too many Fundamentalists complaining about the pagan origins of how we tell time, or the fact that many days and months still bear the names of heathen gods (as do all the planets in our Solar System)! Does an Evangelical commit idolatry every time he says the word "Saturday" or "January", or talks about the planet Venus? Hardly!
So what should we do, abandon the "tainted" Julian or Gregorian calendars for, say, the Jewish calendar? Well, even then we could not completely escape pagan names, for one of the Jewish months is called Tammuz, after an ancient pagan deity! And as we saw above, calendars in general are of pagan origin, with ties to astrology. Yet how silly it would be to give up calendars completely on that account!
Many other traditions which we perform without even thinking about them originated in paganism. For instance, the practice of blowing out candles on a birthday cake has roots in Greco-Roman paganism, as does the use of flowers at funerals and gravesites, and numerous traditions related to weddings. Did you know that the wedding ring originated in paganism? Yet Jews and Christians have used it for centuries as a symbol of the marriage covenant/Sacrament of Matrimony. This is not displeasing to God at all, since there is no idolatry involved in the wearing of a piece of jewelry!
In sum, Christians have effectively "baptized" many pagan practices and symbols for centuries, converting them to Christian use. There is nothing sinful or idolatrous about that; as long as something doesn't violate Christian faith and morals, it can be cautiously assimilated.
Even in our modern secular world, we are surrounded by emblems of pagan origin. The symbols for male and female are derived from the signs for Mars and Venus. The Caduceus, a common medical symbol (see right) was originally the staff carried by Hermes/Mercury (which became confused with the staff of Aesculapius, the god of medicine). The image of Justice (a blindfolded woman holding a pair of scales) which decorates many court buildings is based on Themis, the ancient Greek goddess of order, law and justice. Even the Statue of Liberty is modern version of Libertas, the Roman goddess of Liberty.
Does this mean that Christians cannot go to a medical clinic featuring a caduceus on front, or to a court building with a Justice statue on top? Is it idolatrous for a Christian to visit the Statue of Liberty? Hopefully everyone can see the absurdity in that way of thinking.
I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Even in secular society certain symbols which are pagan in origin have been stripped of their pagan significance and taken on a harmless secular meaning. We can even go one step further by transforming and adapting certain non-Christian practices for the glory of the One True God. So looking for similarities between Catholic and pagan practices, and then concluding that Catholicism must actually be a heathen religion, is ridiculous. It's like pointing to a newly-baptized convert to Christianity and saying "Hey, you were born into a pagan family and raised a pagan, so you can't be a Christian now; you must still be a pagan!".
More on Pagan Words
Often, anti-Catholic purists will say things like "the word Easter is derived from the name of Eostra, the pagan goddess of spring". The article "Are Christmas and Easter Pagan?" shows that this etymology is questionable, but lets just say, for argument's sake, that this is the derivation of the term "Easter". Does this mean that Christians should never use the term?
Well, what about the word "God"? English-speaking Christians use it all the time to refer to the Supreme Being, but it was originally used to refer to Germanic pagan gods. So, by Hislop's standards, we should not use that "tainted" word to refer to the one true, um, Deity. (Wait! the word "deity" comes from the Latin "deus", which was originally used to refer to the ancient Roman gods, so I guess we can't use that word either!)
Perhaps we should instead use the Hebrew words "Elohim" or "El", as the Bible does? Ah, but wait...the Bible also uses "elohim" (a plural term) to refer to false gods, so that word is contaminated by pagan usage as well! And, as we saw above, "El" was the name of a Canaanite deity, so forget that one, too. (The Greek term "Theos", used for God in the New Testament, was also used for ancient Greek deities, so that's out.)
Do you see what happens if we take the purist mentality to its logical conclusion? We can't even use terms the Bible uses! We can't even open out mouths, for fear of using a word once used by a pagan! Let's face it, every human language is touched by paganism in one way or another. We can't escape it, so we must either stop speaking or transform human language for the spreading of the Gospel.
Words are not in themselves "pagan" or "evil", it is the use of the words that matters. If we begin to use them to glorify Our Lord, that is a good thing. As Christ transformed the cross from a gruesome form of execution into a sign of salvation and eternal life, so Christians can transform "pagan" words and practices to the Glory of God.
Whether they realize it or not, the purists who shun words and practices because of a perceived pagan origin are being elitist. They do this so they can walk around saying "We're purer Christians than you are; you're at best a half-Christian, or at worst a pagan-in-disguise!"
Hislop's attitude borders on Gnosticism, which taught that the physical world is innately evil. He seems to believe that otherwise innocuous words or activities are inherently evil because of previous pagan usage. I'm not talking about idol worship or child sacrifice here, which are obviously immoral according to the Scriptures. I'm talking about something like eating a goose for Christmas dinner, yet another thing he claims is "pagan" in origin (though that's questionable). Avoidance of idolatry is understandable but this is going way to far.
No disrespect meant to Deputy Dog but, I'm a Christian and I don't believe that. I believe that Christ died for everyone and it's an act of free will to choose to become a Christian. Yes, God does call people, I believe He called me, but it is still a choice.
Sirona, I used to be a Pagan before I became a Christian. No one converted me or convinced me to become a Christian. I’m really not into debating or trying to convert people. I had enough of that as a JW. So I’ll just tell you my experience of becoming a Christian.
I kept driving past a particular church and something inside me kept telling me to go there. I didn't go for 2 years because I still had the JW mindset that churches are "evil". One day, I decided to research that church on the Internet, I wanted to make sure they didn't do anything crazy like roll in the aisles.
I found them on the Internet and they had all the sermons online and all the services were broadcast live on the web. The pastor was kind, caring, humble, intelligent, and well spoken. Nothing like the JW elders. Inside, I realized that he was speaking the truth and that this was what I had been missing in my life. A short time later I got up the nerve to go to the church and I became a born-again Christian soon after.
There is an amazing power in Christianity. Since I became a Christian there has been an incredible change that has occurred in my life. God has made me into a better person. I am filled with love, peace and contentment. He has blessed me, healed me and answered my prayers. I spent years in therapy because of being a child abuse victim and that didn’t heal me the way God has. Therapy is good, I don’t want to knock it, but it’s no substitute for Jesus. My husband noticed the change in me and became a Christian a few months later.
I have found that Jesus is far more powerful than any spell and is more loving than you could ever imagine. It can't be proven or disproven. It’s really hard to explain in a way that a non-Christian can understand, you almost have to experience it for yourself.
I don't want to ramble on and on so here are some resources that helped me in my search:
This is the church I attended in Florida. http://www.calvarymelbourne.org/ Many ex-JWs attend Calvary Chapels now. I know several that attend this one in particular.
Two books that really made an impact on me during that time are the “Case for Christ” and the “Case for Faith” by Lee Strobel. Strobel is an investigative reporter and a former atheist. He’s a really smart guy and his books are really well written. http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307
Tower Watch is run by an ex-JW turned Christian. It's a great website. http://www.towerwatch.com/
Questions and answers about God and Christianity. http://www.gotquestions.org/
Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.
Charlotte
some ex-jws are drawn to paganism because of a need to get as far away as jehovah's witnesses as possible. it's a sort of rebellion along with a need of nonconformity. some may have become extremely liberal thinking and feel that paganism harmonizes with that. women who were jws are especially drawn to the power of the goddess because of being a second class citizen for so long. we are disgusted with mainstream religion and men who make the rules. others find themselves slowly gravitating their way to paganism. becoming more aware of the meta-physical. nature becomes alive and sacred...we discover the power of the spirit within nature, ourselves and animals.
many times we exjws choose paganism because we are angry at the watchtower society and thus dispute their entire belief structure...including god, jesus, repentence, conversion, christianity. over time as this anger fades we begin to reason that we all "believe in the same god." especially if we are a solitary practictioner, we will begin to become lonely and "miss the association" mainstream religion has to offer. we may be missing the "sense of belonging or faith"
if we dance around the surface of paganism and do not have a strong "spiritual" experience or a structured life course...we may be tempted to (reconvert) back to christianity. just like christians may say that "god calls you to christianity" a person is also called or meant to be pagan by a mystical experience. you may be given a "gift" of knowing or pre-sight.
if you convert to paganism because you were disolusioned with the witnesses or were "stumbled by a brother or sister" in the congregation...be cautious. there must be a "spiritual experience" or a conscious decision based on research. just because you are "curious" or it looks good on your myspace page isn't enough.
christian conditioning is based on fear. fear of letting down the congregation, god or family. fear of armageddon or hell. this fear can be re-kindled. paganism isn't for everyone. it isn't mainstream so you have to be emotionally strong, have discipline and dedication that aren't shared by the majority of people. you have to overcome the conditioning of being a witness. it takes character and fortitude.
a pagan may be converted back to christianity if: they lack conviction, lack strength of mind, need a group of people to maintain their convictions, psychologically weak to resist pressure, secretly never gave up their jw beliefs, fall in love with a christian.
sometimes exjws hide away in paganism until they return to christianity in another form. they feel that all religions want the same things but go about it differently. if the old ways are in you...they are in you and are woven into your entire life.
This isnt the best place to be converted to Christianity. Main stream Christians consider JW's a demonic cult. If you are serious about examining christianity this is not the place.
I'll give you my 2 cents though you are probably closer to truth being a pagan than a Christian.
In the christian bilbe there are no eye witness accounts of anyone ever seeing Jesus. It's all hearsay.
The Christians took your pagan beliefs of worshiping the sun and the 12 movements thru the sky, the 12 apostoles, and politicized it to Catholicism which all the various christian groups have splintered off from. The Jw's being one of the more outrageous cultish spin offs.
I am a Christian.
I believe you are content where you are. You are in Journey.
When your Journey begins to weary you look around. If you find the drink I offer refreshing, ask the source and we can talk......
My take is this:
Better a loving pagan in the Judgement than a hypacrital Christian...we will see, won't we....
V
Deputy Dog
Conversion is a work of God, not of man. It's not up to me to convert you or anyone else. To be a Christian you need to be chosen by God.
I have a question. Do you believe that to be Christian I need to be chosen by Yahweh, or Jesus?
You see, being Pagan, some would say I was chosen by the other gods.
It is really annoying how some Christians seem to think that their way is the only way, and that God only chooses certain ones to be Christian.
Sirona
