How to stump someone that believes the noah's flood happened.

by 5go 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia

    Why are there concepts of dragons and giants in various cultures around the world? Because people have been discovering fossils of megafauna for thousands of years. And there had to be some explanation for these giant creatures.

    “Fifty-five years ago, a French geologist called Josue-Heilmann Hoffet went to Indochina to conduct a geological survey and found dinosaur bones. Near the border between Vietnam and Laos there is a very small village in a dry teak forest. The people of the village are Qatang and they are animists. Hoffet arrived in this small village, and when he began observing the rocks, the people say, ‘Oh, you must be looking for the stone bones-of the sacred buffalo.’ They told Hoffet that when the sacred buffalo are young, they carry the sun in the sky each day, and when they get old, they die in this place, not far from the village. This is their legend. They took him to see the big vertebrae of the sacred buffalo. They were dinosaur bones. Hoffet was fascinated and wanted to collect the bones, but they told him, ‘You cannot touch these vertebrae because they are sacred. If perhaps you do a sacrifice, maybe you can collect some of them.’ So he paid them a buffalo, a young buffalo, and he was allowed to collect some of the fossil bones. He described these bones in 1936 in Hanoi in a small paper, ‘Description of New Titanosaurians in Bas-Laos.’ (Hunting Dinosaurs by Louie Psihoyos and John Knoebber (page 132)]
    "A number of European caves, especially in central Europe, traditionally maintain the name of the dragon’s (or dragons’) cave or lair. During the 17th century, the German doctor Petersonius Hayn found some large skulls, isolated teeth, and bones in several caves in the Carpathian Mountains around Moravia. In 1673, Hayn had a article published by the Halle Academy of Sciences entitled “Skulls of Dragons in the Carpathians.” Around the same time, another German, named Vette, found similar remains in Transylvania. According to their discoverer, these bones belonged to flying dragons. Illustrations of the material described by Hayn and Vette still exist. In both cases, they are of Quaternary cave bears, a powerful animal that was one of the largest carnivorous mammals. The famous Austrian paleontologist Othenio Abel analyzed the legend of the dragon of Klagenfurt (Austria) early in the 20th century. At the beginning of the 14th century in the spot known as the “Dragon’s Grave,” the skull of a woolly rhinoceros from the ice age was found and was subsequently exhibited in the city’s town hall. This specimen served as a model for the sculptor Ulrich Vogesland for this creation of a statue of a dragon, which today is an emblem of the city of Klagenfurt" (Starring T. rex!: Dinosaur Mythology and Popular Culture by Jose Luiz Sanz, pg. 122-123).

  • wherehasmyhairgone
    Interesting. I gave up discussing issues about the Flood when I found out the ice cores used to introduce millions of years of chronology were standing on top of tropical vegetation on the floor of the Antartica. That's enough global flood evidence/indication for me.


    How on earth is that evidence for a global flood,

    And your statement for ice core dating is misleading, ice cores are one of a number of different methods used for dating our very old earth.

  • Shawn10538

    Also, remember that most of those flood stories pre-dated the Semite people, so, the Bible's version is a very late version of the flood story, so it can not possibly be infallible if it deviates from the original version of the story, which I believe is Summerian if I'm not mistaken.

  • tijkmo
    I didn't know other cultures believed in Dragons. Do you think the "Dragons" might have been Dinosauers?
    You most live a sheltered life.

    yeah me too

  • Reefton Jack
    Reefton Jack

    The origin of both legends - the Global Flood, and Dragons - makes for an interesting
    However, the legends about dragons are not quite in the league of being a "Stumper" for disproving that there was a flood of some sort.
    - There is probably a grain of truth in both ideas.

    A person could argue that legends about dragons have their origins in the dinosaurs or other reptiles
    - in a similar manner as the legend of the Unicorn had its origins in the Narwhal.
    (The legend of St George slaying a dragon apparently came from a Roman Soldier
    - presumably named George! - killing a crocodile at some place in the Middle East).

    Similarly, the prevalence of legends about a flood could indicate that, early in the history of the human race, there was a catastrophe involving water.
    (Though whether it was literally as the bible says, and flooded the entire surface of the planet, is another matter!)

    PS: wherehasmyhairgone (a question I often ask myself!)
    - JCanon's mention of tropical forests under the Antarctic ice is probably referring to the fact that coal has been found in Antarctica.
    Coal, of course, is derived from ancient tropical vegetation - indicating that at some time in the past, Antarctica's climate was vastly different from the present day.
    (I am not suggesting that this is proof of a global flood, of course).

  • Terry

    For me, the best argument against the Noah story is to put it in a Timeline of History and ask the vexing question : How did all these nations arise so completely, so different from each other artistically, politically and architecturally so fast?

    All of this from 8 souls in the same family with the same background and experience??

    Mind-boggling! The cultures are vastly different. The mindsets are diverse to the point of being inscrutable to one another.

    The people with a vested interest in maintaining the idea that the Bible is error free have had a bumpy ride with the advent of science.

    Why? Science has a method of demonstrating things from cause to effect using a chain of evidence. The method includes data, means of testing and disproving and a means of throwing out what contains error.

    At first, the Church embraced scientific method and logic enthusiastically. Why? True belief contained no doubt at all that the greatest book (Bible) would contain the greatest demonstrations of logic, fact and cause and effect.

    There was, however, an unforeseen problem that came back to haunt the church (and by extension) all religion in general. Using data always seemed to raise more questions and create more problems than could be resolved.

    The worst of it was alternative explanations! Reasonable demonstrations containing logical step-by-step refutations of biblical stories were powerful means of destroying the iron grip of Church credibility and faith itself.

    Consequently, Faith itself became the last stand against reasons, facts, proof and logic. "I believe and that's that!"

    Yet and still...believers everywhere cannot stand silent and see the bible refuted, belittled and reduced to mere mythic storytelling!

    The best defense is often a bold offense.

    The Catholic Church developed Majesterium and Protestantism developed inerrancy.

    Majesterium tells us that church pronouncements have binding moral authority.

    Inerrancy insists the Bible must always be construed as the error-free word of the Living and true God.

    Facts? They cannot be FULLY presented or represented. Facts are for science.

    Facts must either be misrepresented or omitted.

    This is now the task of religious apologists: omission and misprepresentation.
    Ironically, the Cathlic Church no longer fears Evolution (for example) because of Majesterium. Protestantism, on the other hand, has locked horns with what they call Darwinism (a quaint mischaracterization) and invented a strawman version of science.

    Authority and pseudo-science plague Christendom at its heart's core.

    Obstinant self-blindness seems to work for now. The symptoms are as follows:

    1.Yes, there are more than enough facts to prove the Bible stories are true. (outright misrepresentation.)

    2.If God said it, I believe it and that's that. (Faith)

    The Noah's ark story has been entirely debunked using math, meteorology, archeology and the age of civilizations. Yet, it lingers still as a kind of mental artefact and talisman to those who simply must believe what they have been given to believe.

  • nvrgnbk
  • PrimateDave

    I learned that the Flood account in the book of Genesis is an edited version of two previous stories that differ from each other in significant ways. See the book Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Friedman for a scholarly discussion of the Documentary Hypothesis. In a previous Flood topic I separated the texts using the information from Friedman's book.

    I used to accept the things I was told as a child at face value because I trusted the adults around me to know what they were talking about. I have since come to realize that this is the basis for the perpetuation of cultural and religious myths. Fortunately, we live in a time when we can look up the information for ourselves and make up our own minds, free from preconceived ideas if we so choose. It is not surprising that we may have developed emotional attachments to the stories we learned in childhood and thus have difficulty seeing the world around us through any other perspective.

    So, It is not up to me to try to stump someone who believes in the Flood. We are adults now. We can do the research and make up our own minds, right? For my part, I will just go so far as to suggest that there are a wide range of perspectives "out there" that go beyond the literal, inerrantist, and fundamentalist religious mindset. Take your pick. ;)


  • Perry

    Most Flood questions are addressed here:

  • marmot

    Perry, those "answers" are worse than anything I've ever read from the pages of the WTBTS. I hope you were being sarcastic when you posted the link.

    Their arguments are full of baseless supposition and selective ignoring of facts then pulling them out again when it suits them. For example, they show absolute scorning disregard for geological processes and use completely unfounded theories to explain them away but then when confronted with the whole marsupial thing they state: "Evolutionist geologists themselves believe there have been major tectonic upheavals" that explain supposed land bridges to Australia that would have allowed all the platypuses (platypi?), koalas, wombats, tasmanian tigers, kangaroos, wallabies and other assorted creatures a plausible escape route from Mt. Ararat.

    The whole global flood false doctrine is what first pushed me away from the WT's teachings, and I have no patience for people who use junk science to prop up their literalist interpretation of scripture.

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