How to stump someone that believes the noah's flood happened.

by 5go 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Perry
    The point is that in studies of native population group's dna do not point to a common origin in the middle east where Noah's ark supposedly ended up.

    How do Y chromosomes fit into the biblical framework?

    Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, including one pair of ‘sex chromosomes’ which are XY in males and XX in females. Thus the Y chromosome is passed down only through the male line, from father to son. A 1995 study of a section of Y chromosomes from 38 men from different ethnic groups around the world was consistent with the biblical teaching that we come from one man, Adam—see Y-chromosome Adam?

    Females have no Y chromosome, but an analogous test can be performed on them—it’s only through the female line that mitochondrial DNA is transmitted.* The mtDNA evidence is consistent with all humans being descended from a single woman as the Bible teaches, although it doesn’t actually prove that there was ever only one woman in existence. And recent evidence about rapid mutation rates in mtDNA is consistent with this ‘Mitochondrial Eve’ having lived only about 6,000 years ago—see A shrinking date for ‘Eve’.

    Application to Jews

    Michael Hammer at the University of Arizona in Tucson and colleagues, some from Israeli universities, analysed 18 sections of the Y chromosomes from 1,371 men. They came from 29 different populations, including seven Jewish (Ashkenazi (European), Roman, North African, Kurdish, Iraqi and Iranian, Yemenite and Ethiopian Jews), five Arabic (Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Israeli Druze and Saudis) and 16 non-Semitic groups.2

    The close similarities within the Jewish Y-chromosomes, even from widely scattered populations, was compelling evidence that they all come from a common ancestor. The study also showed that Arabs are closely related to Jews.

  • Perry
    Comparison of Genesis and Gilgamesh 8
    Extent of floodGlobalGlobal
    CauseMan’s wickednessMan’s sins
    Intended for whom?All mankindOne city & all mankind
    SenderYahwehAssembly of “gods”
    Name of heroNoahUtnapishtim
    Hero’s characterRighteousRighteous
    Means of announcementDirect from GodIn a dream
    Ordered to build boat?YesYes
    Did hero complain?NoYes
    Height of boatThree storiesSeven stories
    Compartments inside?ManyMany
    WindowsAt least oneAt least one
    Outside coatingPitchPitch
    Shape of boatOblong boxCube
    Human passengersFamily members onlyFamily & few others
    Other passengersAll kinds of land animals (vertebrates)All kinds of land animals
    Means of floodUnderground water & heavy rainHeavy rain
    Duration of floodLong (40 days & nights plus)Short (6 days & nights)
    Test to find landRelease of birdsRelease of birds
    Types of birdsRaven & three dovesDove, swallow, raven
    Ark landing spotMountains—of Ararat Mountains—Mt Nisir
    Sacrificed after flood?Yes, by NoahYes, by Utnapishtim
    Blessed after flood?Yes Yes

    Which came first?

    We can see from the table that there are many similarities, which point to a common source. But there are also significant differences. Even the order of sending out birds is logical in Noah’s account. He realized that the non-return of a carrion feeder like a raven proved nothing, while Utnapishtim sent the raven out last. But Noah realized that a dove was more logical—when the dove returned with a freshly picked olive branch, Noah knew the water had abated. And its non-return a week later showed that the dove found a good place to settle.

    Enemies of biblical Christianity assert that the biblical account borrowed from the Gilgamesh epic. Followers of Christ cannot agree. So in line with the Apostle Paul’s teaching in 2 Corinthians 10:5 , it’s important to demolish this liberal theory.

    Genesis is older

    It makes more sense that Genesis was the original and the pagan myths arose as distortions of that original account. While Moses lived long after the event, he probably acted as the editor of far older sources. 9 For example, Genesis 10:19 gives matter-of-fact directions, ‘ as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim ’. These were the cities of the plain God destroyed for their extreme wickedness 500 years before Moses. Yet Genesis gives directions at a time when they were well-known landmarks, not buried under the Dead Sea.

    It is common to make legends out of historical events, but not history from legends. The liberals also commonly assert that monotheism is a late evolutionary religious development. The Bible teaches that mankind was originally monotheistic. Archaeological evidence suggests the same, indicating that only later did mankind degenerate into idolatrous pantheism. 10

    For instance, in Genesis, God’s judgment is just, he is patient with mankind for 120 years ( Genesis 6:3 ), shows mercy to Noah, and is sovereign. Conversely, the gods in the Gilgamesh Epic are capricious and squabbling, cower at the Flood and are famished without humans to feed them sacrifices. That is, the human writers of the Gilgamesh Epic rewrote the true account, and made their gods in their own image.

    The whole Gilgamesh-derivation theory is based on the discredited Documentary Hypothesis. 9 This assumes that the Pentateuch was compiled by priests during the Babylonian Exile in the 6 th century BC. But the internal evidence shows no sign of this, and every sign of being written for people who had just come out of Egypt. The Eurocentric inventors of the Documentary Hypothesis, such as Julius Wellhausen, thought that writing hadn’t been invented by Moses’ time. But many archaeological discoveries of ancient writing show that this is ludicrous.

    All people groups remember a global Flood

    Liberals often claim that the Gilgamesh epic was embellished from a severe river flood, i.e. a local flood. This might work if there were similar flood legends only around the ancient near east. But there are thousands of such flood legends all around the world—see the chart below for some examples. 11

    Even the Australian Aborigines have legends of a massive flood, as do people living in the deep jungles near the Amazon River in South America. Dr Alexandra Aikhenvald, a world expert on the languages of that region, said:

    ‘… without their language and its structure, people are rootless. In recording it you are also getting down the stories and folklore. If those are lost a huge part of a people’s history goes. These stories often have a common root that speaks of a real event, not just a myth. For example, every Amazonian society ever studied has a legend about a great flood.’ 12

    This makes perfect sense if there were a real global Flood as Genesis teaches, and all people groups came from survivors who kept memories of this cataclysm.

  • wherehasmyhairgone

    Ok so i have to bite at some of these replies.

    ok first off

    Perry's post

    This ship had a crew that was almost twice as large as that of the largest aircraft carrier we have ever built! The size of the ship approximated the size of Noah’s Ark. Up to ten banks

    First things first you are on about a ship built 2000 years later!. A wooden vessel without iron bracing will buckle of that size, (isn't there a navel ship architect on this board ,or am i thinking of another one). You mention all it had to do is stay water tight, like that isn't a major deal. Ask yourself this why has none of these religious nuts ark builder built an ark of equal size and floated it.. simple you can't unless you use technology that wasn't described in the account, or invented at this time.

    I actually didn't missed the ventilation part, but i would humbly suggested you work out the sheer mechaincs of that many animals on the ark, cracks, would not cut it.

    But your last comment summed it it, when all else fails invoke by definition is belief in something with no evidence OR against the evidence.

    So with Wood and pitch the ark wouldn't have floated, if he had used iron bracing maybe, but you still have the tremendous forces pushing against the ark in a flood environment, Look at recent floods, our modern vessel capsize and sink during these heavy weather patterns, yet a wooden ark floats!. Like you said... Its faith to believe that.

    And the next one

    t’s interesting that the observed evidence for rapid formation of ice layers is also ignored. This can be seen in the squadron of P-38 Lightning fighter planes and B–17 Flying Fortress bombers of WWII. On July 15, 1942 they had to make an emergency landing on a Greenland ice sheet. The planes were abandoned. Later in 1988 the planes were found buried under 250 feet of ice!1 Much ice core dating is based on the assumption that one layer equals one year, but we have seen that such layers can form rapidly and more than one per year.

    Exactly how deep is one layer? you jumped from a description of layers to a measurement of ice. REAL scientists that date ice cores, are aware that layer will change in size, but this is accounted for, by using other dating. This whole WWII plane things has been destroyed so many times as a claim for flood evidence of multiple ice cores, I would suggest you research some peer reviewed papers from scientists not whack job like answers in genesis or god forbid the WTS information.

    Creationist geologists

    That's a funny expression, a geologist that sets out to find evidence to back his faith, what a good way to do science. Actually I would like to see your references for your assumptions and claims in your Krakatoa,( i am not disputing the incident) but animal suddely appeaing again? .

    Therefore, since evolutionists believe all organisms came from a common ancestor, migration between Australia and other areas must be conceded as possible by all scientists, whether evolutionist or creationist.

    i actually done understand your point here, no one is saying that australia didn't get populated by evolutionary stages that originated in Africa. But if the flood is right that this couldn't have happened, as the current seascape of australia wouldn't allow any animal crossing to that country at all.

    The problem with the flood starts at the beginning and doesn't end, every step of the flood account goes against what we can prove, science has shown, so it comes down to ignoring the evidence and using faith to allow the flood story to be taken seriously still.

    I have yet to see any evidence that back up the idea that a global flood happened in the last 4500 years. It has nothing to do with how you view the data. creationist ignore and misquote data to arrive at their so-called eveince for a flood.

    Awakened07, that what i started out doing, set out to prove the science wrong , and ended up at the same conclusion you have


  • wherehasmyhairgone


    Your using Answers in Genesis!.

    Well that shows me that you are not in the least bit concern about the truth or even finding it out, but rather looking for anything written that backs up your personal view.

    Answers in genesis is a joke my friend, they misquote, misrepresent, and promote ignorance.

    If your just gonna copy and paste that dribble the write on that site, do us all a favour and just use links. Being a parrot for that site isn't going to do you any good.

    by the way YC-Adam and M-Eve certainly didn't live at the same time, we are looking at tens of thousands of year apart. Guess that part needs faith. And they were certainly not alone.

    AG pick and chooses its science facts, takes what seems tf it and discards the rest as flat out wrong, based solely on a faith/belief position.

  • moshe

    Perry, Perry, you really don't understand the concepts involved- cut and paste does not bestow knowledge. I tested my Ydna and it came back E3b1a= semitic in origin. This was a big surprise as only 3% of my surname group ( a very, very common surnname) have this type semitic dna. Everyone should have almost identical semitic dna due to something called a bottlenck, if we are all related to Noah's family who allegedly survived the flood 4500 years ago. Well it just isn't so. The Mormons have tried to say that native Americans are related to the lost tribes of Israel, too and their book of the Mormon has been questioned by their own members now due to current dna research.

    added: Perry, go to and order a dna test for yourself- then find out who you match up with- they have over 100,000 people worldwide. You will find out , most likely, that you have no close matches to any semitic persons.

  • wherehasmyhairgone


    thanks for that link, I am going to get mine done.

    BTW the Doc Rules!

  • Perry

    Sorry for the cut and paste. I reasearched all the stuff years ago enough to decide to take everything apart from relevation with a grain of salt. I do enjoy reading about the various points of view though.

  • 5go

    Maybe Perry you should look at it this way. You are proving magical flying fire breathing dragons really do exist !

    The is about as much proof of their existance as there is for a great world wide flood, and much of the evidence proving dragons exist is simular to the type used to prove the great flood happened.

  • Terry
    It didn't have to steer or cut thru water. All it had to do was stay afloat and be watertight. Genesis also says that Noah was instructed to put holes (presumably for ventilation) into the structure so the methane crack shows you missed that part.

    Where is the EFFICIENCY of a Supreme Being in all this?

    It was the humans who were targeted for extermination and yet, the plants and animals were caught up in the "plan".

    Killing cockroaches with a shotgun is about as mindless!

    Saving 8 people and "select" animals would hardly be a task to a transcendant mind of an eternal being.

    I think we are seeing the limit of the AUTHOR's mind in Genesis. Early mythmakers just could not conceive of anything with more efficiency and specificity than a flood and a floating box of humans and animals!

    Swallowing this crude story denigrates the whole idea of what God's intelligence consists of!

    Zap! Zap! Evil people are dead and everything else is preserved.

  • funkyderek


    I reasearched all the stuff years ago enough to decide to take everything apart from relevation with a grain of salt.

    And that in a nutshell is what's wrong with your worldview. Instead of rejecting the "revelation" when it is incompatible with the evidence, you reject the evidence.

    Further, your embarrassing (but not atypical for a creationist) misunderstanding of the nature of Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosome Adam shows that either you haven't done the research or you've been incapable of understanding its implications. But don't worry, Answers in Genesis has a counterargument for every piece of evidence - as long as "revelation" is more important to you than truth.

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