For Christians: Grace vs. Forgiveness (page 7)

IP_SEC

Terry,

Your comments at the beginning were right on. Problem is that they do not belong on this thread. You went down hill from there.

There is nothing wrong with examining one property of an object or subject. It is called REDUCTION. Reduction is a time honoured scientific process. It has its flaws, sure, but it has its strengths too.

Your style can be rather off-putting and borderline bullyish. Im sure this is one reason the thread has had very few on-topic replies. I was interested in seeing how Christians would answer. I might have learned something, by listening. No it would not have changed what I believe about the non-existence of god and jesus, but I might have learned something about people and the way they think.

Terry, true is true is true yes? Truth is not an individual experience. It just IS. The quest for truth is an individual experience, and no one has the market cornered on truth. Not even me

Finally, fanactical devotion carries over even to the use of logic and reason.

Arrogantly forever yours,

matt

nvrgnbk

Now there's an arrogant bastard I can really get behind. LOL!

Nicely put, endearingly arrogant IP_SEC.

TheListener

Let's face it, Terry and Auld Soul and even Kid-A for that matter all seem to have a bone to pick with each other. Fine.

Just do it somewhere else.

I want to learn, I want to help others learn. I'm sure many here are in the same boat I am.

I was looking forward to learning something on this thread.

I needed this thread to help me in my life. Is that sad? Yes. Is it true? YES.

Perhaps if we respected each other a little more and liked hearing ourselves talk (or write) a little less these kinds of problems could be reduced. hmmm....

AuldSoul

TheListener: I needed this thread to help me in my life. Is that sad? Yes. Is it true? YES.

And that is really the point, kid-A and Terry. You guys are playing. Some people here are hurting and have needs that SOME of us are trying desperately to fill. Am I angry at you both? You betchya. But not because of MY thread, or MY rights, or MY thoughts getting trounced. That happens often every day in real life too.

I'm angry at you because you needlessly and recklessly destroyed something that could have helped a specific person cope with their life a bit more easily.

AuldSoul

Matt,

I agree with your post, except for one gross understatement:

Your style can be rather off-putting and borderline bullyish.

Even when he's right, he's over the borderline of bullyish. When he's wrong, he's even moreso.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

RAF

AuldSoul,
I've wanted to answer further yesterday but didn't think I would have the time to make myself clear enough about my feelingson this very important matter in spirituality. and I don't think I'll have the time tonight either.
I'm really interested in this thread which actually talks about more than grace and forgiveness - and can lead very further on the matter of the kind of spirituality it calls people to get into.
You've quoted the bible (and of course I have nothing against) but a tibetan monk - a jew rabbi - ... muslim, ... taoist - whatever means actually a few spiritual words said at the right moment to the rigth person from anybody even a kid would get us to the same point when we really pic into their messages what's really important spiritually (in or out of context depending on the matter).
It is not and will never be a matter of religion to me because any atheist for instance can be spiritually christian. Which just means that they adhere to (have faith in) his phylosophy / wisdom ... For a better understanding about what I've said and copied on this topic, you can see why I've wrote this at first : it's realated to an other thread ... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/138505/1.ashx ... In which the reasoning have something to do with this topic (regarding to the bible) To resume the scriptures quoted explain what is God conceptually, and what is Christ relatively to God.
I want to stay conceptual because to me Christianity is not a matter of religion but a matter of spirituality (and everybody have acces to it) I mean you don't have to adhere to any religious specific belief (even about the existence or non existence of God) to get there. You only have to adhere to something which really makes you feel better and gets you able to transcend things you might never think being able to. And somehow you just need to really want it (for example to forget nor forgive others and ourselves) but of course that doesn't mean that we have to allow more pain from others or ourselves ... how many times did Jesus run away? It talks a lot ...
I've realised that the bible is saying things that most religious and religions don't pay attention to ... (because they focus on what is not important and can't get what is really important - it confuses everything often on purpose). In the story when Jesus is talking to sinners what he says is : Don't do this or that for your own good (but what is a sin? since you have to considere everything contextually out of laws) those he really gets angry at are the hypocrites !!! Egocentric nor materialistic and hypocrites about it (who wants to look like they are not).
We have an idea about how the inconcious and concious hypocrisy of the JW's doesn't help ... bad faith (hyprocrisy) is actually what doesn't allow us to see what is the most important in everything and what is important to someone is related to (what he loves/wants for real? How much? Why? = For who and what) and when are we or do we become hypocrites, when we want to consciously or inconciously hide something to others nor ourselves or when we want to save something which does not have a real value regarding to what's really matter contextually and regarding to the matter itself) ...
For instance how many times did we see parents in the kingdom hall striking their kids for them to sit down like adults to listen to speeches !!!??? What does this really says about the parents? But if you ask them why they'll probably answer something stupid just to not acknoledge their real reasons : looking good because they look bad or not being bothered by their kids that they put themself in a very incomfortable situation ... how spiritual, loving or even balanced is that? Why do they sit there themself for hours?
About salvation/grace regarding to sins when you read roman 7 ... you just feel to have a good laugh but in fact it talks about the importance of sincerity and acceptance about our weakness (ours and others onces which suppose forgiveness for others and ourselves). but still whatever we did wrong will have a consequence (we accept/assume it or not) but Spiritual maturity comes out of experiences (ours and others onces) we learn from them or we dont but to learn form them we have to assume our own responsabilities (regret - repentance and if possible repair).
OY ... sorry maybe too much off topic here ...

AuldSoul

RAF,

Thank you so much for sharing that.

I agree completely that Christianity is about spirituality and not religion. I agree completely that the religious and religion tends to focus on the wrong things, the behaviors, the actions, the outward show of it.

I also agree that maturity (spiritual or otherwise) always requires growth through experience. EVERYONE had to go through a growth process, but it seems to be human nature to forget that we weren't always as mature as we are right now and that can allow us to look down on and belittle those who aren't as mature as we think we are.

I think that if people forget they are growing—that they have grown, and haughtily refuse to allow others to experience the growth process, it is a kind of hypocrisy. I get angry at hypocrites, too.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

IP_SEC

Now there's an arrogant bastard I can really get behind. LOL!

Well right on man, right on. All I ask is just dont stand too close behind me. Night yall.

nvrgnbk

All I ask is just dont stand too close behind me.

I thought you'd pick up on that, IP_SEC. LOL!

Open mind

Auld Soul said:

"EVERYONE had to go through a growth process, but it seems to be human nature to forget that we weren't always as mature as we are right now and that can allow us to look down on and belittle those who aren't as mature as we think we are."

Can I get an Amen brother?

I'm sure I don't agree with many of your viewpoints Auld Soul, but I can really get behind that.

Open Mind

For Christians: Grace vs. Forgiveness

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